Excelsior Entertainment Forums
Warzone => Game Questions => Topic started by: PhillySniper on May 01, 2007, 08:59:21 PM
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1. Does the scorpion get the -2 for his shield if he is attacked from behind?
2. Does the scorpion shield protect his opponent if someone fires into CC between the scorpion and another model?
3. Who made those darn scorpions so tought to kill anyway ???
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1. Does the scorpion get the -2 for his shield if he is attacked from behind?
2. Does the scorpion shield protect his opponent if someone fires into CC between the scorpion and another model?
3. Who made those darn scorpions so tought to kill anyway ???
1. YES (non-vehicle models turn to face the opponents for free).
2. YES (it's a BIG shield)
3. jjdodger, of course!
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The scorpion was involved in CC with more than 1 model already. A 3rd model charges into the fray and gets into his rear facing. Does he still get the bonus?
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Dave's Answer #1 still hold's it turns to face the charge.
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So you can never get into someones rear arc? If there is more than one attacker, you have to spend an action to turn to face the 2nd when you attack back?
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only if you withdraw from CC and get cought..
remember: CC is a chaotic mass. perhaps the scorpion managed to get the first enemy between himself and the new one?
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So you can never get into someones rear arc? If there is more than one attacker, you have to spend an action to turn to face the 2nd when you attack back?
You can get into a vehicle's rear arc, or a model who's not engaged in CC. Otherwise, no, there is no "rear arc" in CC.
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Ok just to make sure I understand correctly.
1. No attacking the rear arc in CC.
2. You can force a person out of a tactical position by attacking in CC with a unit that would force him to turn.
3. If attacked in CC by two or more units, I MUST spend an action to turn to attack the unit to my rear < even tho CC is a whirling mess>
4. The Scorpions shield protects both combatants if outside fire is directed into CC.
Do I have that right?
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Ok just to make sure I understand correctly.
1. No attacking the rear arc in CC.
There is no bonus or penalty for attacking from the rear, therefore the point is moot. Only when attacking vehicles is there a bonus when attacking the rear arc, and then, only with AV-rated weapons. When attacking any other model in CC, there is no "rear" arc, as all models involved are constantly changing position within the melee.
2. You can force a person out of a tactical position by attacking in CC with a unit that would force him to turn.
I am not sure I understand your meaning here, as there is no position change, other than facing, which is free and unlimited for models that are on foot [edit] while in CC.
3. If attacked in CC by two or more units, I MUST spend an action to turn to attack the unit to my rear < even tho CC is a whirling mess>
It costs no AC's to turn to face the model(s) that is (are) attacking the turning model in CC. There is a cost of turning to fire at a closer model in your rear arc, asFiring Arc is 180 degrees, but sight is 360 degrees, therefore, a model that is out of your firing arc, but is in LOS and closer than a model in your firing arc must be fired upon, according to target priority.
4. The Scorpions shield protects both combatants if outside fire is directed into CC.
Do I have that right?
GFQ, man. Never gave that one much thought. Let me get back to you on that.
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There is no bonus or penalty for attacking from the rear, therefore the point is moot.
if you withdraw (P 44) from a charge from wait and get cought you get to make a panic check at -6
-> no bonus, but rear attacking exists (in a way)
no mention exept in this case, though (at least non i found..)
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Withdrawal does not, necessarily, mean run away - it simply means that you are increasing the distance between the charging model and the model being charged. Movement in reverse has been discussed, and is allowed.
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Withdrawal does not, necessarily, mean run away - it simply means that you are increasing the distance between the charging model
well, perhaps, but the rules state that you get hit from behind (P.44) when withdrawing.
therefore:
Movement in reverse has been discussed, and is allowed
may be legal, but not when performing withdraw (from wait)
the -6 ! LD test is also a good indicator that withdrawing does not mean "fall back in order"
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The answer to 4 is no the shield only protects the scorpion otherwise you open up a new possibility of being in base contact with an Attila and the shield protecting him.
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The answer to 4 is no the shield only protects the scorpion otherwise you open up a new possibility of being in base contact with an Attila and the shield protecting him.
Thats not exactly true. The Attila wouldnt be in CC with the Scorpion. In CC with it being a whirling mess why would the Scorpion get the bonus but not the person fighting with him? I can see that the Scorpion as normal would put the shield in an optimal position to protect himself thus the -2 to hit but in CC he doesnt expect someone to fire so the shield isnt in place, hes more concerned about the immediate threat so thats where the shield would be oriented.
There is no bonus or penalty for attacking from the rear, therefore the point is moot. Only when attacking vehicles is there a bonus when attacking the rear arc, and then, only with AV-rated weapons. When attacking any other model in CC, there is no "rear" arc, as all models involved are constantly changing position within the melee.
In the case of the Scorpion there is a bonus < or lack of a penalty> if I can get behind him where his shield is not. I mena the shield is big but it cant be everywhere at once ;)
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Dave's Answer #1 still hold's it turns to face the charge.
So if he turns to face the charge, when CC is completed does he return to his original facing or does the orientation change. I ask because you can then change his target priority by making him have a new closest target.
I hope Im not giving away any tactics here ;D
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Withdrawal does not, necessarily, mean run away - it simply means that you are increasing the distance between the charging model
well, perhaps, but the rules state that you get hit from behind (P.44) when withdrawing.
Still, no bonus or penalty from getting hit from "behind." The rules are pretty clear in that the target of the CC attack will turn to face its attacker.
therefore:
Movement in reverse has been discussed, and is allowed
may be legal, but not when performing withdraw (from wait)
the -6 ! LD test is also a good indicator that withdrawing does not mean "fall back in order"
The -6 is only if the attacker manages to get into CC after the Withdrawal. To my knowledge, there is no LD test to come off Wait when the model is the target of the Charge (from Chronopia, but clarified by Thom to be included in UWZ).
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Dave's Answer #1 still hold's it turns to face the charge.
So if he turns to face the charge, when CC is completed does he return to his original facing or does the orientation change. I ask because you can then change his target priority by making him have a new closest target.
I hope Im not giving away any tactics here ;D
There is no change in Target Priority to rotate the model in place - there is only a change to Firing Arc for RC attacks. If the closest model winds up in front/back of model wishing to fire at it, it may have to turn to do so, but still must fire at the closest target to it in LOS (LOS is 360 degrees - not 180 degrees).
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nice try, but you donīt actually turn the figs around, right?
everything like actual facing in CC is covered in the simplification of "a fighting chaos", i think-
and think about it: after the CC the winner would not really have the same orientation than before
-> equal positioning after a front CC is also a simplification..
i could not find a passage in the rules that support the turn-the-fig hypothesis..
-> new rule question: do you ever move the figure, exept the figure itself uses an action and moves??
(exept "conceled" (cant remember if stealth/stalk..) troops to move out of the way until detected or something like screeching projectile)
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According to Thom, the figure that was charged does, indeed, turn to face the attack. Therefore, at the end of the CC, if the charged model is still alive, it has a new facing and firing arc.
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According to Thom, the figure that was charged does, indeed, turn to face the attack. Therefore, at the end of the CC, if the charged model is still alive, it has a new facing and firing arc.
Oh Goodie ;D :D ;D :P
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Update: There is one situation that needs clarification and has not been discussed, yet.
A model which is on Wait may not come off Wait if charged from behind. This is the only instance I was able to locate anything having to do with facing and CC. (see pp 44, 48)
Further, on page 44, it states that a model on Wait may turn to face its attacker and conduct a normal melee attack (making the facing change for free and expending the Wait AC as the attack) if it survives the initial charge and ensuing attack from the charging model.
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4. The Scorpions shield protects both combatants if outside fire is directed into CC.
Do I have that right?
GFQ, man. Never gave that one much thought. Let me get back to you on that.
Any answer to this one?
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one other question:
it may have to turn to do so, but still must fire at the closest target to it in LOS (LOS is 360 degrees - not 180 degrees).
-> therefore i am forced to spend an action just to rotate to fire at the closed enemy. ok...
but:
-what about a team-mate in the way, but not block LOS? do i have to move to get a chlear shot (1īgap-rule) at the enemy?
-do i need to move into LOS, because I (the player) know that a given model is relatively close?
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The rules are pretty explicit there - if LOS is blocked, then you cannot fire. I think that this discussion is becoming one of Rules Lawyering, rather than healthy debate over gray area. The rules are in place to make the game fun. Somehow, it seems that there is more interest in exploiting percieved holes in the rules, than there is in simply enjoying a game. My two cents. :)
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its only a matter what you ask players to do..
do you want that they spend actions to shoot at the closesed or not??
-> if not, then you can make corridors with other models/terrain-
-> if yes, you can not make shooting corridors with terrain and models.
--> what does warzone want?
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If the target is in LOS (360š), it must be the target. If the model must turn to fire at the closest target, then, it must do so. If LOS is blocked to the closest target, then the next closest is the target priority.
This is what UWZ wants. Please, let me know if I can make this any clearer.
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it is clear now..
-> that was my misunderstanding in the AM 360° thread.
http://forum54.oli.us/index.php?topic=2388.0
however, one of the replies there:
Remember you only have to target the closest model in your forward firing arc, if he (AM with GS) chooses to target a model in his rear arc the other models are now in his rear arc and not priority targets.
if this is true, your explanation seems contradicory!?
If the model must turn to fire at the closest target, then, it must do so.
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Unfortunately, Phil got this wrong. Surprising, as Phil (Dragon62) is, normally, very good with the rules. But, hey, we cannot get them all right, all the time. ;D
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I'am wrong on a qoute from another tread ;D To answer Philly's Question about the scorpions shield page 145 -2 cc and rc bonus only applies to the model with shield.
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I'am wrong on a qoute from another tread ;D To answer Philly's Question about the scorpions shield page 145 -2 cc and rc bonus only applies to the model with shield.
Sorry Phil. I was lead astray! Aldrien fooled me. He speaks in deceit! Semai's minion he is! So, now, am I! ;D
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I'am wrong on a qoute from another tread ;D To answer Philly's Question about the scorpions shield page 145 -2 cc and rc bonus only applies to the model with shield.
no, the reference was to the fireing arcs of assault mariens.
i think the citation is correct ???
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No worries, as long as all is clear.