Excelsior Entertainment Forums
Warzone => Game Questions => Topic started by: PhillySniper on October 10, 2005, 05:16:37 AM
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I have a question for everyone concerning paradeploy.
During game play, in a basic industrial kill everyone battle, I came across this situation.
My opponent had decided to use a bulk of his force on paradeploy units. I built a rather conventional force. Because of this I had 4 more squads to activate than he did< not including his paras>.
Now heres my question. What constitutes the end of your turn? My opinion on this is if you pass twice during a round that is the end of your turn. Paradeply SA states that you can deploy anytime during "your" turn. If I activate two or more times without action by my opponent, my feeling is he shouldnt be allowed to bring his paras into play on that turn as he no longer has a turn. My opponents waited until I had finished moving all my squads< when he won init and all things being equal I would have moved last, thus ending the round> to bring his paras into play. That to me didnt seem to be a legal tactic. I looked for an answer in the book and couldnt find one.
Thanks for any input.
Philly
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I remember this came up on the old forums but the answer escapes me at the moment. I'm thinking that it was they choose to deploy on their activation until all your forces are deployed and the turn ends - but I could be wrong. I've played it both ways
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Bryon if you go last and activate your last unit the turn has come to an end . Your opponent will have to wait till the next turn to activate.
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Bryon if you go last and activate your last unit the turn has come to an end . Your opponent will have to wait till the next turn to activate.
I understand that part. The part im having trouble with is when he has done his three onboard activations. I still have 4 more onboard activations to go. My opponent says Im done when I still have three activatins to go. He doesnt do anything after the first or second activation then after the 3rd states Im gonna use my paras. My prob with that is that by passing he effectively ended his turn. I cant pass and say Im not gonna use this squad and then when I see something to my liking say ok Im gonna use them now. IMO if a player has paras and are going to use them in a turn, he should have to use them before passing on multiple activations. And if he passes he definately shouldnt be able to deploy them after I have moved all of my squads.
Philly
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Bryon during a turn you and your opponent activating 1 unit at a time. It is legal for your opponent to bring in 1 squad of para. after your 3rd activtion but not all his units, since activation 4 is your last he has to wait till the next turn. At which time he can bring in 1 unit per activation just as if the game was being played without any para-deploy troops.
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I think that is what Bryon is saying, Phil. I believe a good example of Bryon's discussion is as follows:
- Bryon wins intiative and choose to active his Militia
- Jeff decides to NOT bring in his Para Deploying Shock Troopers and actives his Chasseurs
- Bryon activates his Vulkans
- Jeff decides to NOT bring in his Para Deploying Shock Troopers and actives his People's Volunteers
- Bryon activates his Dragoons
- Jeff decides to NOT bring in his Para Deploying Shock Troopers (his last unit left to activate)
- Bryon activates his Pauldron Hussars
- Bryon activates Max Steiner
- Bryon activates his Jungle Kommandos (his last unit to activate), ending the turn.
It is at this point where the discussion is being made. Bryon thinks that Jeff should NOT be allowed to bring in his para-deploers at this point, and must wait until next turn when he has activations - thus, ending the turn. Bryon feels that he should not lose his activation advantage to the para-deployers, as he would not have lost it had Jeff not had para-deployers.
There are those out there that play it where you may bring your para-deployers in anytime after your opponent has completed activating one his/her units, even it their opponent had three or more activations more than they did, as follows:
- Bryon wins intiative and choose to active his Militia
- Jeff decides to NOT bring in his Para Deploying Shock Troopers and actives his Chasseurs
- Bryon activates his Vulkans
- Jeff decides to NOT bring in his Para Deploying Shock Troopers and actives his People's Volunteers
- Bryon activates his Dragoons
- Jeff decides to NOT bring in his Para Deploying Shock Troopers (his last unit left to activate)
- Bryon activates his Pauldron Hussars
- Bryon activates Max Steiner
- Bryon activates his Jungle Kommandos (his last unit to activate)
- Jeff NOW decides to bring in his Para Deploying Shock Troopers (his last unit left to activate) gaining a huge advantage by dropping in on Bryon's rear quarters. He obliterates half squad with no chance of return fire.
End of turn.
Correct me if I am wrong, Bryon.
My thoughts are that para-deploy already has severe limitations:- Cannot ever land directly on center of target - will always deviate.
- Landing takes an AC, landing more than 2" from the center of the DZ takes another action, and failing LD means you fall prone, taking yet another AC to go MP or stand.
- Almost never lands where you want it to land.
- Take a friggin' miracle to get off a relatively small number of shots.
However, I am not blind to the advantages. I feel that para-deploy works well when, like anything else, it is used properly.
I am on the fence, here. I lean more towards the "anytime after your opponent has completed activating a unit" deployment. I believe that there is merit to both sides (deploy anytime it would normally be your turn to do so vs. deploy as long as it is legal to do so without "passing" on an activation.
Need a ruling.
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...not to mention that they are expensive and can longer use their SA once on the ground.
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As someone who plays Capital quite often and uses airborne troopers fairly often, I have seen the good the bad of para deploy. After using these quite a bit, I have come to appreciate the advantage of being able to drop my airborne troopers in after my opponent have moved their forces for the turn. It's a key part of my strategy and also a key part of the use of Para deploying troops, is when to drop them. As Dave pointed that in when you are doing your troop a lot can go wrong. So my view and with my experience I'm some one that goes for being able to drop your forces anytime during your turn. Including after the opponent has moved
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As someone who plays Capital quite often and uses airborne troopers fairly often, I have seen the good the bad of para deploy. After using these quite a bit, I have come to appreciate the advantage of being able to drop my airborne troopers in after my opponent have moved their forces for the turn. It's a key part of my strategy and also a key part of the use of Para deploying troops, is when to drop them. As Dave pointed that in when you are doing your troop a lot can go wrong. So my view and with my experience I'm some one that goes for being able to drop your forces anytime during your turn. Including after the opponent has moved
That actually is the basis of my question for this thread. WHAT IS A TURN? Is it your turn as long as you have units available to be activated? My main question is about passing. I can understand if you want to wait one activtation to deploy your paras, but if you wait more than one activation, that makes it an unfair tactic. Now grant it, the chance of it happening often where a player has more than 2 activations more than an opponent is rare, but the situation can occur and Id just like a clarification.
Thanks
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I can't give you the answer Philly but I would like to see that you can field the Paras even if you were skipped in the turn and had activated your last normal sqaud.
Why? Because Paras were mostly a waste of points in our games. I don't know if we have the wrong tactics or if our battlefield has to much obstacels they can land on, but they get always messed up. If you can land them as the last unit in a turn the chance to survive would be greater, you just have to win the next initiative.
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Ask JungleHunter and Shidoshi357 about my Paradeploying tactics. There is only one way to get your points from Paradeploy models and it certainly ain't holding them for the perfect moment.
Catch me in person some time and I'll tell ya the difference between what winners and losers hold.
-PFC joe
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Bryon a turn is based on the number of units you have. If you have 5 unit and I have 7 unit your turn is 5 activation and mine is 7 activations. When using para-deploy troops the rules state you may deploy anytime during your turn not a game turn. So once your opponent has reached his last activation phase he would have to wait till the next turn to para-deploy. he does not gain extra activation phases because you have more units then him.
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Bryon a turn is based on the number of units you have. If you have 5 unit and I have 7 unit your turn is 5 activation and mine is 7 activations. When using para-deploy troops the rules state you may deploy anytime during your turn not a game turn. So once your opponent has reached his last activation phase he would have to wait till the next turn to para-deploy. he does not gain extra activation phases because you have more units then him.
Ok so if you have 4 activations plus your paras, you would be allowed to deploy anytime after my activations 4, 5 and 6 but not after 7? Is my understanding correct? So as long as you have a unit to activate it is still your turn? Doesnt that take away my initiative advantage and my activation advantage?
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Initiative is not the issue, though activations are. Having initiative means you get to decides who activates first. Having an Activation advantage means you get to out-activate the enemy towards the end of the turn, as you possess more units than the enemy.
That said, I am less on the fence than I was before.
Phil is saying that the turn ends when the last unit has been activated, and there are no units left to activate. However, he is, also, saying that if you have not activated your paradeploy units by the time he has activated his last unit, then you have forfeited your right to do so for that turn. It is here - sorry, Phil, that I am going to shoot his argument down, as well as yours, Bryon. :)
Bryon, reverse the situation.
By some miracle, I have more units than my enemy, and one of them happens to be para-deploy. I lose the initiative for the turn. Here is how it would look:
- Activation One
- Enemy activates
- I activate
- Activation Two
- Enemy activates
- I activate
- Activation Three
- Enemy activates
- I activate
- Activation Four
- Enemy is out of units and cannot activate
- I activate
- Activation Four
- Enemy is out of units and cannot activate
- I activate my paradeploy units (enemy has passed twice)
I can choose, now, to land my para deploy units. Yes, I know that the difference here is that
I[/i] have not passed. I realize that this is one of the sticking points of the discussion, however, I offer it to show that if one side can hold them to the last, then the other side should be allowed. Therefore, the definition of the end of the turn should be when all units that are able to activate have done so.
By Phil's definition, my turn would have been over before I could bring in my Para Deployers.
That said, Para Deployment is, by definition, a Special Ability. As such, it is not, necessarily, subject to the "normal" rules. It is, now, even more apparent to me that the Para Deploying Unit should be allowed to be activated any time during the player's turn.
Remember, this is a very expensive, one-time use Special Ability.
Further, I think that this discussion has reached a point that it needs official ruling.
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Hmm I do not believe the basic question has been understood.
If you 'pass' (even with some unactivated para-troopers) is 'your turn' over?
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In my opinion, and how we play in my group, is that a turn is equal to the total activations on the table, and the turn ends at the same time for both players. There is no "your turn" "my turn" differentiation, the turn is over when ALL units on the table, regardless of who they belong to have been activated. Therefore a player may deploy his paradeploy units at any time he would normally be able to activate a unit (his place in the activation order), even if he's passed in the past, since the turn is not over.
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I think the answer is actually a very simple one, one that I have been following since I have played this game and "paradeploy" was a part of it.
If you pass at any time during a turn when it would be your normal time to activate a unit you have declared that you are done activating units for that turn. You cannot bring in any offboard units after you have passed regardless of how many activations your enemy has left.
Offboard units = para-deploys and unseen assailants. Keep in mind that, I don't think "pass" is even a game term, but I can't think of any other term to use to describe the process of NOT bringing in any offboard troops.
So to make another example:
Coil has 10 units
Wedge has 9 units (3 of which are paradeploy units)
Coil wins initiative and goes first
Play alternates until Coil activates 6 units and Wedge activates 6 units as well.
Wedge has activated all his on board units hoping to save his paradeploy units for the end of the turn
Coil activates his 7th unit on the table
Wedge is now forced to decide if he wants to bring in one of his paradeploy units or pass. If he passes he his done for the turn and cannot bring in any more units.
This is how I have interpretted the current rules.
However, having said ALL this... I think that this is HOW it could/should work:
Since we use deployment cards we can use them to fake out our enemy right? Well, in the game of Chronopia you can use DC's to make your enemy THINK you have stalkers, or units with outmaneuver... why can't you do the same thing in Warzone? What I mean is this: Keep a DC aside for each of your paradeploy units. When it comes your turn to activate one of them you can reveal the card and say, "I am activating this unit of paradeployers". If you do not want to activate them, you can simply place the card face down on the table somewhere and say, "This unit of paradeployer's is going to PASS this turn and not deploy". This way you can bluff your opponent if you DON'T have paradeploy units in your army (using a False Lead), or you can actually pass with a real unit and hold off on bringing them in. The balance is that the opponent of the person with the paradeploy units will not be out activated at the end of the turn. HE won't have to face someone bringing in multiple paradeploy units at the the end of the turn in succession. IMHO, this tactic simply is unbalanced; it isn't fair by any standard. Using the DC's the way I have described would be much more balanced.
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I think the answer is actually a very simple one, one that I have been following since I have played this game and "paradeploy" was a part of it.
If you pass at any time during a turn when it would be your normal time to activate a unit you have declared that you are done activating units for that turn. You cannot bring in any offboard units after you have passed regardless of how many activations your enemy has left.
Offboard units = para-deploys and unseen assailants. Keep in mind that, I don't think "pass" is even a game term, but I can't think of any other term to use to describe the process of NOT bringing in any offboard troops.
So to make another example:
Coil has 10 units
Wedge has 9 units (3 of which are paradeploy units)
Coil wins initiative and goes first
Play alternates until Coil activates 6 units and Wedge activates 6 units as well.
Wedge has activated all his on board units hoping to save his paradeploy units for the end of the turn
Coil activates his 7th unit on the table
Wedge is now forced to decide if he wants to bring in one of his paradeploy units or pass. If he passes he his done for the turn and cannot bring in any more units.
This is how I have interpretted the current rules.
I couldnt have said it better myself< I know I tried>
However, having said ALL this... I think that this is HOW it could/should work:
Since we use deployment cards we can use them to fake out our enemy right? Well, in the game of Chronopia you can use DC's to make your enemy THINK you have stalkers, or units with outmaneuver... why can't you do the same thing in Warzone? What I mean is this: Keep a DC aside for each of your paradeploy units. When it comes your turn to activate one of them you can reveal the card and say, "I am activating this unit of paradeployers". If you do not want to activate them, you can simply place the card face down on the table somewhere and say, "This unit of paradeployer's is going to PASS this turn and not deploy". This way you can bluff your opponent if you DON'T have paradeploy units in your army (using a False Lead), or you can actually pass with a real unit and hold off on bringing them in. The balance is that the opponent of the person with the paradeploy units will not be out activated at the end of the turn. HE won't have to face someone bringing in multiple paradeploy units at the the end of the turn in succession. IMHO, this tactic simply is unbalanced; it isn't fair by any standard. Using the DC's the way I have described would be much more balanced.
I like the idea of the DC's. I dont have a problem with it being done that way because you are being forced to make a choice and are not being allowed to sidestep the system. In this scenarion id hate to have to try to defend against 3 para units when I had the numbers advantage to begin with. As long as a choice is made Im all for it.
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I like the idea of the DC's. I dont have a problem with it being done that way because you are being forced to make a choice and are not being allowed to sidestep the system. In this scenarion id hate to have to try to defend against 3 para units when I had the numbers advantage to begin with. As long as a choice is made Im all for it.
I am in agreement with Bryon, here.
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Since we use deployment cards we can use them to fake out our enemy right? Well, in the game of Chronopia you can use DC's to make your enemy THINK you have stalkers, or units with outmaneuver... why can't you do the same thing in Warzone? What I mean is this: Keep a DC aside for each of your paradeploy units. When it comes your turn to activate one of them you can reveal the card and say, "I am activating this unit of paradeployers". If you do not want to activate them, you can simply place the card face down on the table somewhere and say, "This unit of paradeployer's is going to PASS this turn and not deploy". This way you can bluff your opponent if you DON'T have paradeploy units in your army (using a False Lead), or you can actually pass with a real unit and hold off on bringing them in. The balance is that the opponent of the person with the paradeploy units will not be out activated at the end of the turn. HE won't have to face someone bringing in multiple paradeploy units at the the end of the turn in succession. IMHO, this tactic simply is unbalanced; it isn't fair by any standard. Using the DC's the way I have described would be much more balanced.
Interesting, Interesting.
So you play a false lead as a paratrooper squad, right?
In this way you can delay the fielding of the paras by using the false lead first.
If you would have played the false lead normaly on the table you could only do this in the first turn.
Now you are able to delay the fielding in any subsequent turn.
What I have learned to use Paras is this:
Only use Paras if you have a lot of activations in your force.
Always bring them as your last unit in a turn. Win the Initiative on the next turn (if you are playing Cap, put the Colonel in)
Don't bring them in directly on the front. Bring them in in cover or behind some Infiltrators (except for fullfill a mission goal suddenly).
In this way you decrease the tactical options of your Paras, but you increase their lifetime a lot.
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What I have learned to use Paras is this:
Only use Paras if you have a lot of activations in your force.
Always bring them as your last unit in a turn. Win the Initiative on the next turn (if you are playing Cap, put the Colonel in) Don't bring them in directly on the front. Bring them in in cover or behind some Infiltrators (except for fullfill a mission goal suddenly).
In this way you decrease the tactical options of your Paras, but you increase their lifetime a lot.
BWha hahH HhAhaa!
you're kiddin right? I'm sorry, that's the sorriest use of Paratroopers I've seen yet. Why do you bother taking them if you're only gonna let the opponent decide where and when you can drop them.
I have never dropped them with the intention of digging in and hoping for a good initiative roll.
I drop them as my first, second and third squads.
I drop them almost ontop of enemy forces (within reason obviously).
And I let them be the shock forces that the rest of my forces race up to catch up with.
The only time my Paratroopers (regardless of force) aren't practically in the opposing deployment zone is when I can't get another squad to an objective fast enough.
The only way to open both tactical options and extend lifetimes is to take the intiative (tactics wise not game wise) and never let it go. Choke the enemy deployment zone with your templates and fire lanes and never let up.
-PFC joe
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Joe you must have extrem luck with this taktic.
When I deploy them at the beginning on top of my enemy following happens.
Nearly all of them are landing beside the landing template, so I have to role LD.
Half of them fail the role and go prone. Some of the others are landing on top of an opstactle
and are removed from game or go prone. So only a few paras are standing upright with one action left.
The opponent then has it activations to shot down your prone uncovered paras.
A little bit expensive for meetshield or?
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Never a meatshield.
When you're dropping 14~20 guys in a couple squads you have roughly 2/3 (given a LD of around 12 or so) making their leadership rolls to be in MP. At worst you have a 50% chance of makin it. Of the guys, one out of five will hit the template (depending on how you measure) givin' them a couple actions to play with.
The trick is to not dump them in the middle of a pile of Unit cards but slightly to a flank and in front of a very limited amount of cards, so that those models that do make their rolls are at the best ranges to inflict an attack against a unit with limted cover and recourse.
Then again, Luck is my specialty.
I apologize, you may fight your war however you see fit.
-PFC joe
-Fortune's favored Son-
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When you're dropping 14~20 guys in a couple squads you have roughly 2/3 (given a LD of around 12 or so) making their leadership rolls to be in MP. At worst you have a 50% chance of makin it. Of the guys, one out of five will hit the template (depending on how you measure) givin' them a couple actions to play with.
14-20 Guys? Ok, I haven't tried to build half my force with Paras.
If you use only one Squad in a 750 Pts force you must deploy them very carefully.
If you use such a mass of paras your tactic could work, maybe I try it one time.
But the luck is definetly not on my side with paras :'(
Ok, I think there is enough said about this. But if you want to have the last words don't be shy ;)
P.S. If you deploy them on a flank you must be very carefull, that not some of them are droping off board.
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Sending one squad is a death sentence for an otherwise perfectly good squad of troops. They're going to be alone out there for the better part of two turns at least. In order to avoid Panic you need a good many of them.
My Algeroth force is centered around two squads of Neronian Legionairres and then a squad of Pretorian Stalkers from the Horde backup (with the prerequisite grunt and whatnots). They don't always win, but they never hunker down and play speedbump.
-PFC joe
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I have a Cap vs Imp PBEM game going vs Wedge right now and Wedge just dropped some Storm Trenchers behind my lines.
He dropped them in a dangerous position so one guy landed to close and got captured and one guy flew off the table but the rest got down and killed of 5 Desert Scorpions for me.
I've managed to kill a few but not enough to panick them and now they'll probably survive until next turn and if he wins initiative I have a problem.
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RIght, I think in this example that Coil just described I did get lucky with the Storm Trenchers. I lost 2 out of 8 of them, and of the remaining 6 only one fell prone. The others all landed with one action (except the leader who got 2 actions). The shotguns and flamer templates did a number on his flank. He lost 5 of 6 Desert Scorpions and 2 Heavy Infantry (the Sgt and a Sniper). It was a very fortuitous drop.
The good news for me is that I have landed in an area where most of his troops have activated. And I can also land my Blood Beret's and Blood Beret Captain in the same spot if I am feeling squirrelly.
I doubt I would try this tactic in EVERY battle like Pvt Joe is talking about, but the scenario in this game practically dictates that I do this... we are playing were we are trying to bust through each others lines (MacCraig Battle). By taking this position he is forced to deal with me and delay his advance or ignore me and advance, hoping I don't take too many casualties while he runs away. It's an interesting situation... we'll let you know how it turns out.
Oh, and the Storm Trenchers were the 2nd unit out of ten that I activated on the 1st turn. I think timing is important for para-deploy units, but I don't think you should always hold them until the end.
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An activation is the unit of time when one side completes it actions with one unit of it's force. A turn is a unit of game time in which both sides complete all available activations. The para-deploy rule seems to offer an exception to the alternate (you go/I go) activation that is prevalent in most games. I see the logic in both arguements and will play it however the final decision goes.
As for the Para-deply tactic, I gotta agree with both PFC Joe and Wedge:
1) Dropping a small squad is a waste of good troops (PFC Joe) and
2) Timing is everything (Wedge)
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Joe you must have extrem luck with this taktic.
When I deploy them at the beginning on top of my enemy following happens.
Nearly all of them are landing beside the landing template, so I have to role LD.
Half of them fail the role and go prone. Some of the others are landing on top of an opstactle
and are removed from game or go prone. So only a few paras are standing upright with one action left.
The opponent then has it activations to shot down your prone uncovered paras.
A little bit expensive for meetshield or?
You roll LD always - not only when you land off-template. Someone correct me if I am wrong, please.
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You're right. You deviation then a LD test for the landing.
-PFC joe
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You're right. You deviation then a LD test for the landing.
-PFC joe
And furthermore... you will never be standing upright. If you make your leadership test you will immediately be in Minimized Presence. Where you land on the template only determines if you get two actions or one action after a successful LD test. A failed LD test, regardless of where you land you'll be prone (barring landing off the map or within 3" of the enemy of course--in which case the model is removed from play).
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Drumroll, please.
It so happens that PhillySniper (and anyone who agreed with him) regarding the fact that a person may NOT pass is -
CORRECT!
You may not pass (any number of times) and then expect to use your paradeployers on that given turn. If you do not activate a unit or play a False Lead when it is your turn to do so, you may not play another unit that turn.
In order to use paradeploy, you must use them when it is your turn to activate. This is not to say that they must be used in a turn, only that they must be used if you plan to use them that turn. You may hold them for a subsequent turn(s), but they still must be played when it would normally be your turn to do so.
This will be officially ruled on by the boss (I spoke with him in person), but I put this here to get the ball rolling.
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sound fair.
If people are allowed to Pass, what would stop the game into devolving into "I Pass" "So do I" "I pass again" "so do I" etc.?