Excelsior Entertainment Forums

Talaminiatures => General Discussions => Topic started by: Veez on February 26, 2007, 05:56:02 AM

Title: State of the Nation
Post by: Veez on February 26, 2007, 05:56:02 AM
It's been roughly a year (give or take) since Paradox pulled the rug out from under us (thanks guys-how's that movie coming along?).

I'm not going to make bitter comments at how much money they could have been making through EE compared to what Fantasy Forge has been raking in with their (cough-unreleased-cough) Mutant Chronicles collectable figure game.

I am not here to go over painful territory or hurt anyone's feelings (except a mild sting to the aforementioned corporation that starts with the letter P).

I would like to examine where we are and where we are going.

Achievements:

1.  Figures
We have sucked the world dry of existing Warzone figures.  Yeah there are still sources out there but they are drying up quickly.   Prince August remains our best hope, assuming we can produce enough business through them to convince them to produce for us.  I am optimistic, but not holding my breath, either.  Cyclopes Forge has also produced some suspiciously familiar figures and if we in the States can get past the insane S&H costs or get a local distributer we will be looking well.  The only thing that could make us purr would be for the greens that never saw the light of day to get produced but we can always hope.
We have identified proxies and scour EBAY almost daily but soon may have to resort to piracy to produce "legitimate figures".  I don't necessarily see this as a bad thing so long as laws are not broken.  I label this as an accomplishment because I think it proves that Warzone has life and a financial interest if only to a niche market.  It has also made us tighter as a group as we trade amongst our selves.  I have yet to see a negative post in the Good Traders section (of course maybe that's why it is the Good Traders section) and only know of one case of someone hedging.  Overall though, people have been extremely generous with one another.

2. Conventions
We have gone independant and shed the chains of organized conventions (although there is still participation in some of the more open-minded conventions) and started producing our own events.  I think this is a remarkable feat considereing.  I especially salute the efforts of Topkick, Archer, and the whole Maplewood gang for keeping that torch burning in the continental United States.  Europe is freaking out of control with Warzone/Chronopia goodness and I don't even know where to start with those guys.  I know I have left someone out in this so my apologies if I have.

3.  Unit of Command
The board has done an excellent job with the Warzone FAQ team.  The dozens of small issues the plague any first printing/new ruleset are being addressed and smoothed out.  Keep up the good work. 

Challanges:

1.  Figures
See above.

2.  Factions
There is a small sense of us vs. them between this board and some of the European crowd.  Also, some people have split off and started using their own rules to overcome percieved shortcomings.  Some would argue this is the beginning of the end.  Others would point to its inevitability.   The question is at what point does it stop becoming Warzone?  I would argue that second edition was so far off the map from the original fluff that it was close.

3.  Spam 
Good heavens will it ever end?  I'm not pointing fingers at anyone other than the spammers on this one.

4.  Forward progress
Where are we now, but more importantly where are we going?  Coki has pushed forward with a team for Curelian Mists.  Chronopia is limited by its lack of a points rubric.  There have been long talks about the legitimacy of producing or copying the Warzone rubric so I won't rehash that debate but I feel there are some shortcomings in the games that should be addressed.  I would like to see an indie mag produced by the board pushing foward new ideas, units, and scenarios if only as house rules.  There is plenty of Chornopia and Warzone out there before we go stagnant, but it will happen.  I know this leaves up open to dissent and disagreement, but it is worthy of thought.

Lamentation
I admint now that I am far more into Warzone than when it was fully armed an operational.  I wonder some times if I would have been more active then (read deeper into the rules, funneled my money towards it rather than some game that will only change everything you bought in a year anyway) it would have made a difference.  Unlikely but it falls in that "which drop of water causes the damn to break" category.


In summary, it's been a year but we are still here.   I would like where all of you think we should be headed.
Title: Re: State of the Nation
Post by: Archer on February 26, 2007, 08:37:27 AM

Achievements:

1.  Figures
We have sucked the world dry of existing Warzone figures.  Yeah there are still sources out there but they are drying up quickly.   Prince August remains our best hope, assuming we can produce enough business through them to convince them to produce for us.  I am optimistic, but not holding my breath, either.  Cyclopes Forge has also produced some suspiciously familiar figures and if we in the States can get past the insane S&H costs or get a local distributer we will be looking well.  The only thing that could make us purr would be for the greens that never saw the light of day to get produced but we can always hope.
We have identified proxies and scour EBAY almost daily but soon may have to resort to piracy to produce "legitimate figures".  I don't necessarily see this as a bad thing so long as laws are not broken.  I label this as an accomplishment because I think it proves that Warzone has life and a financial interest if only to a niche market.  It has also made us tighter as a group as we trade amongst our selves.  I have yet to see a negative post in the Good Traders section (of course maybe that's why it is the Good Traders section) and only know of one case of someone hedging.  Overall though, people have been extremely generous with one another.

  Indeed.  Maplewood still has a healthy amount of product in the back room and Gamers Realm enough to build small armies of two factions- and maybe fillout other forces.  I should have a list soon.

  I also say we encourage a certain individuals efforts with resin...  I know I'd like some more Chassuers... *hint*


2. Conventions
We have gone independant and shed the chains of organized conventions (although there is still participation in some of the more open-minded conventions) and started producing our own events.  I think this is a remarkable feat considereing.  I especially salute the efforts of Topkick, Archer, and the whole Maplewood gang for keeping that torch burning in the continental United States.  Europe is freaking out of control with Warzone/Chronopia goodness and I don't even know where to start with those guys.  I know I have left someone out in this so my apologies if I have.

Indeed....  if there is enough support among the community as a whole, I will look into a hotel conference room or small ballroom for a day of gaming with a small fee... but there has to be a solid interest.  At least fifteen to twenty players or this gets expensive for ol'Archer as I will have to cover shortfall.   Possibly looking at a may time frame.  If I do this, I might have to let the GW crowd in with some of the odd-ball games (Necromunda and BFG)

  (jesus christ... and I swore I would never run/work a convention again)

2.  Factions
There is a small sense of us vs. them between this board and some of the European crowd.  Also, some people have split off and started using their own rules to overcome percieved shortcomings.  Some would argue this is the beginning of the end.  Others would point to its inevitability.   The question is at what point does it stop becoming Warzone?  I would argue that second edition was so far off the map from the original fluff that it was close.

  I would say as long as people are happy and know the core game for international meet-ups, does it matter?  As it is, I have scratch lists for Imperial Guard, Marines and Battle-sisters.  I am working on Orks, Tau and Eldar here'n'there...

4.  Forward progress
Where are we now, but more importantly where are we going?  Coki has pushed forward with a team for Curelian Mists.  Chronopia is limited by its lack of a points rubric.  There have been long talks about the legitimacy of producing or copying the Warzone rubric so I won't rehash that debate but I feel there are some shortcomings in the games that should be addressed.  I would like to see an indie mag produced by the board pushing foward new ideas, units, and scenarios if only as house rules.  There is plenty of Chornopia and Warzone out there before we go stagnant, but it will happen.  I know this leaves up open to dissent and disagreement, but it is worthy of thought.

  We will manage, as we have so far... who knows?  Thom *might* find a way to get the rules released again in some form.  Could not hurt to hope though I am not pinning everything on it. 

  If nothing else, we can come to agreements on expansions to the armies (with lots of playtest!!) and post them here or on a fan-driven site with links to the forums here.  I am certain we can, collectively, do a good job at keeping things alive.
Title: Re: State of the Nation
Post by: masherking on February 26, 2007, 10:22:23 AM
Indeed....  if there is enough support among the community as a whole, I will look into a hotel conference room or small ballroom for a day of gaming with a small fee... but there has to be a solid interest.  At least fifteen to twenty players or this gets expensive for ol'Archer as I will have to cover shortfall.   Possibly looking at a may time frame.  If I do this, I might have to let the GW crowd in with some of the odd-ball games (Necromunda and BFG)
         -archer


One day con's are the best .
I still remember the one at the rescue squad from years ago as being pretty kool.
            
     
 
Title: Re: State of the Nation
Post by: Archer on February 26, 2007, 10:51:05 AM

One day con's are the best .
I still remember the one at the rescue squad from years ago as being pretty kool.

  It was a firehouse... but thanks dude.  They were pretty fun/easy to run.

  I'll stop in the local places up this way sometime in the next few weeks and get an idea of how much money it is going to cost for a day.  Once I know, I'll break it down to a per-person cost based on twenty people (there is about that many in the tri-state area that play) and we will go from there.

sound fair?
Title: Re: State of the Nation
Post by: Gubs on February 26, 2007, 03:09:09 PM
1.  Piracy is illegal.  Period.  You can't reproduce something without the right to do that.
2.  I actually view this as a negative as it means less public interaction with the gaming community and a more insulated and isolated group of core gamers.
Title: Re: State of the Nation
Post by: dmcgee1 on February 26, 2007, 04:18:35 PM
Corny as it sounds, I'm with Gubs on this one.  That said, I am not above going about change and improvement by proper means.
Title: Re: State of the Nation
Post by: wmeredith on February 26, 2007, 04:52:34 PM
Hello.

I will play with the actual mini's for warzone and chronopia when and where I can. In the event I can't buy/trade for them, well I will proxy them. I am already in the process of finding proxies for the majority of my sons of cronos and will proxy what I can't find elsewhere. If we play it the game lives the mini's are nice but secondary.

wmeredith.
Title: Re: State of the Nation
Post by: Dr. Nick on February 27, 2007, 01:54:38 AM
well, to get the feeling you just need the warzone minis... (imho)

good proxies integrated are fine, but I like it when the both sides have the "same" style.

made a demo game with 40k figs and somehow it was odd.


-> other maufactuers figs are better then nothing, but I go to any lengh to play with warzone sculpts and not some other armies
Title: Re: State of the Nation
Post by: Gubs on February 27, 2007, 02:20:54 PM
A lot of the VOID line  should work well.  I get the feeling that a lot of their initial releases were pre-existing Warzone greens that hadn't quite made it into production yet.

Failing that, anything from Kev White should work.
Title: Re: State of the Nation
Post by: masherking on February 27, 2007, 02:22:50 PM
A lot of the VOID line  should work well.  I get the feeling that a lot of their initial releases were pre-existing Warzone greens that hadn't quite made it into production yet.

Failing that, anything from Kev White should work.

I've heard this to be very true
Title: Re: State of the Nation
Post by: joshuaslater on March 01, 2007, 07:29:12 AM
Wholesale piracy of the IP's is illegal, but there's nothing stopping Cyclopes forge from putting out suitable proxies for those of us still playing.  Or any other manufacturer out there either.

If Reaper could make an entire business out of altering the D&D milieu in metal and renaming it, why can't someone do the same for Chrono and Warzone, at least as far as the rules set goes? 

What people have to remember is that these games we enjoy are more than the sum of great fluff and great rules.  The minis are still cool after all these years that we put them on the table, despite so many other newer, sexier sculpts coming down the road today. 

And so we wait.

Title: Re: State of the Nation
Post by: Topkick on March 01, 2007, 08:07:46 AM
It's been roughly a year (give or take) since Paradox pulled the rug out from under us (thanks guys-how's that movie coming along?).

I'm not going to make bitter comments at how much money they could have been making through EE compared to what Fantasy Forge has been raking in with their (cough-unreleased-cough) Mutant Chronicles collectable figure game.

I am not here to go over painful territory or hurt anyone's feelings (except a mild sting to the aforementioned corporation that starts with the letter P).

I think the fact that we are still here and spending money on this game proves that EE was on the right track. Paradox lost a lot of money based on the what we have spent as a group in the last year, not to mention the money they would have made on the new books and releases that could have come out in the past year.

I would like to examine where we are and where we are going.

Achievements:

1.  Figures
We have sucked the world dry of existing Warzone figures.  Yeah there are still sources out there but they are drying up quickly.   Prince August remains our best hope, assuming we can produce enough business through them to convince them to produce for us.  I am optimistic, but not holding my breath, either.  Cyclopes Forge has also produced some suspiciously familiar figures and if we in the States can get past the insane S&H costs or get a local distributer we will be looking well.  The only thing that could make us purr would be for the greens that never saw the light of day to get produced but we can always hope.
We have identified proxies and scour EBAY almost daily but soon may have to resort to piracy to produce "legitimate figures".  I don't necessarily see this as a bad thing so long as laws are not broken.  I label this as an accomplishment because I think it proves that Warzone has life and a financial interest if only to a niche market.  It has also made us tighter as a group as we trade amongst our selves.  I have yet to see a negative post in the Good Traders section (of course maybe that's why it is the Good Traders section) and only know of one case of someone hedging.  Overall though, people have been extremely generous with one another.

Not quite dry but the sources are drying up. I don't know of anyone hedging and agree that we have the best group of traders on the net.

2. Conventions
We have gone independant and shed the chains of organized conventions (although there is still participation in some of the more open-minded conventions) and started producing our own events.  I think this is a remarkable feat considereing.  I especially salute the efforts of Topkick, Archer, and the whole Maplewood gang for keeping that torch burning in the continental United States.  Europe is freaking out of control with Warzone/Chronopia goodness and I don't even know where to start with those guys.  I know I have left someone out in this so my apologies if I have.

Thank you for the kind words but the work in the Midwest has been a group effort. Southpaw, Coldthunder, Stalker, The One King and Sylvas all deserve kudos. Stop by at Origins and say hi and let them and me know what we can do to make Origins better next year.

I also think that the Jersey Boys and the Philly Crew have the right idea. We need to continue identifying pockets of interest and coordinate regional cons to keep it going and expand our base. To that end I am going to talk to Dog of War and the 4 Staters to see if we can identify a venue that is acceptable to them and the Boys from Southern Illinois. If we can find one then maybe we can put together something

3.  Unit of Command
The board has done an excellent job with the Warzone FAQ team.  The dozens of small issues the plague any first printing/new ruleset are being addressed and smoothed out.  Keep up the good work. 

Agreed

Challanges:

1.  Figures
See above.

Most of the 28 mm figs will work. Besides the Urban Mammoth figs, Rezolution, GW, and severla others listed in the search links will work. Cyclops is making excellent proxies and I think that if we let the smaller independent sculptors know they might submit works to Cyclops or other manufacturers for limited production.

2.  Factions
There is a small sense of us vs. them between this board and some of the European crowd.  Also, some people have split off and started using their own rules to overcome percieved shortcomings.  Some would argue this is the beginning of the end.  Others would point to its inevitability.   The question is at what point does it stop becoming Warzone?  I would argue that second edition was so far off the map from the original fluff that it was close.

People have their own desires for the expansion of the game. Grumpel was going to put together something and the Poles have their own FAQ. In the end attempting to force everyone to one standard is what will fracture our community. I encourage that we accept all these cousins to the game and maintain a friendly exchange of ideas. I personally think that everything needed is in the Ultimate rulebook and units limited to one faction (ie the Vermin APC) that make sense for all factions can be created using the same stat line and point cost. Just rename it and find a suitable fig. Bottom line we all love the game so lets work together for the common good.

3.  Spam 
Good heavens will it ever end?  I'm not pointing fingers at anyone other than the spammers on this one.

We just need to keep working together to report them and hopefully they will get the message and go away.

4.  Forward progress
Where are we now, but more importantly where are we going?  Coki has pushed forward with a team for Curelian Mists.  Chronopia is limited by its lack of a points rubric.  There have been long talks about the legitimacy of producing or copying the Warzone rubric so I won't rehash that debate but I feel there are some shortcomings in the games that should be addressed.  I would like to see an indie mag produced by the board pushing foward new ideas, units, and scenarios if only as house rules.  There is plenty of Chornopia and Warzone out there before we go stagnant, but it will happen.  I know this leaves up open to dissent and disagreement, but it is worthy of thought.

The books or at least preproduction notes are out there. If Thom still retains the intellectual rights I for one would gladly pay him in advance for copies so that he could pay upfront for a print run. If they belong to Paradox then I think we need to make them aware that we are here and enter into negotiations to release the material. We have the rubric exposed but the ownership is in debate. We have Grumpels waiver in these forums. If we can get Thom's and/or Paradox's we are in business. I like the idea of an in house mag but wonder who has the time. Maybe if we find a current indie mag- or web- zine we could get some column space from them. My first thought is to talk to Mark Theurer. He was always kind to Warzone and Chronopia in the past. 

Lamentation
I admint now that I am far more into Warzone than when it was fully armed an operational.  I wonder some times if I would have been more active then (read deeper into the rules, funneled my money towards it rather than some game that will only change everything you bought in a year anyway) it would have made a difference.  Unlikely but it falls in that "which drop of water causes the damn to break" category.

I do not want to make anyone here feel bad but I have to relate this as it has a direct bearing on this topic. Thom once told me that he did not want to produce the Warzone SD figs (the Valpurgis and Brotherhood figs that were  replicas of his artwork that appeared in a thread). Everyone raved about them and swore they would buy a set. He sold one - to me. That hurt him more than any other event that happened in the troubles Excelsior experienced I think. He trusted us and we let him down. I have wondered in the past year if Thom spending so little time here has to do with the support for the games we show now but weren't showing when he needed us.

In summary, it's been a year but we are still here.   I would like where all of you think we should be headed.

I stand with the games and Thom. Until they become at odds with each other I will not pick one over the other. When/if that happens I will have to look into my soul and decide what I have to do to live with myself. As for our future we stand at a crossroads. If we turn our backs on each other and our common past (the game) we will perish like so many others who eventually gave up on an OOP game and moved on. I live for OOP games. Been playing Legions of Steel for ?? years and Warzone/Chronopia since they hit my FLGS. As to the specifics ideas for our future that should perhaps be a seperate thread and/or poll so we can jucdge what the group wants and go from there.
Title: Re: State of the Nation
Post by: Southpaw on March 01, 2007, 08:36:45 AM
Quote
I do not want to make anyone here feel bad but I have to relate this as it has a direct bearing on this topic. Thom once told me that he did not want to produce the Warzone SD figs (the Valpurgis and Brotherhood figs that were  replicas of his artwork that appeared in a thread). Everyone raved about them and swore they would buy a set. He sold one - to me. That hurt him more than any other event that happened in the troubles Excelsior experienced I think. He trusted us and we let him down. I have wondered in the past year if Thom spending so little time here has to do with the support for the games we show now but weren't showing when he needed us.

I also bought a set, and have wondered that exact same sentiment, myself..... :(

SP
Title: Re: State of the Nation
Post by: Topkick on March 01, 2007, 08:45:32 AM
Quote
I do not want to make anyone here feel bad but I have to relate this as it has a direct bearing on this topic. Thom once told me that he did not want to produce the Warzone SD figs (the Valpurgis and Brotherhood figs that were  replicas of his artwork that appeared in a thread). Everyone raved about them and swore they would buy a set. He sold one - to me. That hurt him more than any other event that happened in the troubles Excelsior experienced I think. He trusted us and we let him down. I have wondered in the past year if Thom spending so little time here has to do with the support for the games we show now but weren't showing when he needed us.

I also bought a set, and have wondered that exact same sentiment, myself..... :(

SP

My apologies to you Southpaw and to anyone else who bought a set. I was told that only one set had been sold but that was a couple of years ago, before EE went under. Hopefully Thom sold enough to recover the cost at least.
Title: Re: State of the Nation
Post by: Coil on March 06, 2007, 05:29:55 AM
I got one of each as well. So maybe Thom was exaggerating a bit but they probably didn't sell that well.
Title: Re: State of the Nation
Post by: Francesco on March 07, 2007, 03:11:56 AM
IMHO, the only way for chronopia and WZ to resurrect in a new, official release, is only one: Paradox must sell (and not give under temporary license) the rights. PAradox agreement condiction is a suicide for a little company and a big company never will stay at Paradox condictions. I don't know the FFG agreement, but the agreement who we receved from Paradox is too heavy for us, so we contracted the purchase, but nothing... For a company, it is better to invest in a totally new game, and not in two games "dead".
Now, Chronopia and WZ are alive, not strong, but alive. I love this two games (in special way Chronopia) and if we can, we'll would like support them in a "indirect" way. 
Title: Re: State of the Nation
Post by: Glenn M on March 07, 2007, 06:40:05 AM
I have given up on a decent official release, Paradox are a bunch of morons.
Title: Re: State of the Nation
Post by: Topkick on March 07, 2007, 06:54:25 AM
The key to the cost of the license rights is in my opinion the Mutant Chronicles movie. Paradox is expcting it to do well and are pricing the rights accordingly. They also jumped on the collectible minis craze by going with FFG. The license rights they quoted at that time were based on the impending release of both. Since then FFG has postponed release 3 times and I am betting they will miss their current projected release date. Also the movie has developed into something that has little to do with the game's storyline and had more than it's share of problems.

I am currently planning to NOT see the movie and have less than zero interest in the FFG game. If both of these projects tank as quickly and completely as I think they will, then perhaps Paradox will rethink their stance on the license rights and be more acceptable to selling the license or offering better lease terms.

I'm not telling everyone to boycott the movie and FFG game. You all have the right to do whatever you want but I have told you what I am planning to do and why. Something to think about maybe?
Title: Re: State of the Nation
Post by: Francesco on March 07, 2007, 09:32:41 AM
Agree with Topkick, I wish all the best to FFG, they are a really nice company and I like theyr games, but I don't like CMG ( sinceraly, I hate this...).  For me the movie look like a bmovie, but I waint to see before hate this (in any case, it don't look like WZ movie, without Dark Eden, cybertronic, Nero and Valery Duval in Mishima army  ::) ...). Indipentely by the movie, the Chronopia rights are not affordable (and, I don't know any project about Chronopia movie)
The Paradox problem, for me, is only one, they are not fans or gamer or collector of the games. Many chronopia or WZ fans hate excelsior, but, I think, excelsior doing very well for paradox, for a simple reason: they take alive the game, and the brand, in a difficult time, when many don't want buy/play or support two "dead" game. As my other post, this is only IMHO
Title: Re: State of the Nation
Post by: joshuaslater on March 13, 2007, 09:20:59 AM
Excelsior was a tiny life support system for the IP's.  Paradox did not deliver anything promised on their end to help promote what was already the pariah of the gaming world, and Thom did not foresee the hurdles this bad history would entail for him either. 

Whatever happens with the license, the faithful here will be seeing some new ideas and playing more of Chronopia and Warzone. 
Title: Re: State of the Nation
Post by: Gubs on March 13, 2007, 10:33:47 AM
Paraodox is looking for the same deal that they had with Excelsior.  They don't seem to realize that the IP's reputations are significantly worse post-EE than pre-EE. 
Title: Re: State of the Nation
Post by: joshuaslater on March 13, 2007, 10:47:20 AM
The IP was buggered long ago.  It would be best if a company bought it outright like Brigade Models did with Celtos, lock, stock, and Orc falchion.

The IP couldn't have been further down the toilet than when Excelsior picked it up.  Distributors were bent over with leftover stock from Target and wouldn't even give Excelsior the time of day.  We were lucky we got a playable 2nd edition, and at least a couple years of collecting the armies.
Title: Re: State of the Nation
Post by: Gubs on March 13, 2007, 11:05:24 AM
I'm not saying EE wasn't hamstrung.  Retailers are STILL dumping original Target stock.  How can you sell things for full price when everyone else has it for half off? You can't.  EE's success hinged on getting new products out that others weren't offering.  They didn't have a Chronopia release until two years into the license!  EE was in over its head from the start, but they sure didn't do much to help themselves.
Title: Re: State of the Nation
Post by: joshuaslater on March 13, 2007, 11:12:46 AM
True that.  I'm not saying Excelsior didn't shoot themselves in the foot.  I am saying that the IP is damaged regardless.  It's brought down three companies now.  Not a good track record.  Target and Heartbreaker both had more to work with and still they went under.  EE had less and went under.  I don't know what Paradox has in mind, but I don't think anyone picking up the license will have much more success.  The market is changing from ten years ago to begin with. 

I do think a company owning the IP could stand a chance in today's climate, but no one should go near licensing.
Title: Re: State of the Nation
Post by: Gubs on March 13, 2007, 11:26:32 AM
I don't think any company would be wise to touch the license.  They'd find themselves in a similar situation to EE.  I have no idea if Paradox would be willing to sell it.  For what they'd likely ask though, you could commission concept art, illustrations, and writing for your own entire world and not have to worry about the baggage that the current properties carry along.
Title: Re: State of the Nation
Post by: masherking on March 13, 2007, 07:02:24 PM
The sad thing is I can care less about the game world. Let paradox sit on it as long as they want. The real lose is the Great game system EE hammered out. the Game rules itself was one of the best if not the best out there. And EE army list was top notch given what they had to work with.
      Would love to see the game system be put out there in some form.
Title: Re: State of the Nation
Post by: Topkick on March 13, 2007, 07:06:31 PM
The sad thing is I can care less about the game world. Let paradox sit on it as long as they want. The real lose is the Great game system EE hammered out. the Game rules itself was one of the best if not the best out there. And EE army list was top notch given what they had to work with.
      Would love to see the game system be put out there in some form.

There is only one reply I can give and that is to quote Stan Lee - "Keep the faith True Believers"
Title: Re: State of the Nation
Post by: Veez on March 14, 2007, 03:31:52 AM
Sounds like somebody knows something.
Title: Re: State of the Nation
Post by: Topkick on March 14, 2007, 07:32:40 AM
Who? It's not me - I'm just this guy you know  ;D
Title: Re: State of the Nation
Post by: joshuaslater on March 15, 2007, 07:44:18 AM
To get back on Veez's topic:

I'd like to maintain our indie cred for a minute.  I'm working on some lists for figures, new and old, for Chronopia, running them by Thom so they can fit into what we've got already.  Our events, and army ideas should be the sections we develope the most around here, for both games, regardless of what happens.  It's our game, remember?
Title: Re: State of the Nation
Post by: Veez on March 15, 2007, 08:28:14 AM
That's a good idea.  I'd also like to suggest a reccomended (but not mandatory) proxie list for not only for non-existing models, but for hard to find ones as well.
Title: Re: State of the Nation
Post by: joshuaslater on March 15, 2007, 08:38:14 AM
Sounds like we're back on track.  Let's start a thread in the events and army ideas section for just that.
Title: Re: State of the Nation
Post by: TwoGunBob on March 15, 2007, 12:29:59 PM
It's only been a little over a year? It feels like so much longer. Good night, Warzone was the deal breaker in my wargaming life. I was new to it and just started buying figs in anticipation of Ultimate Warzone release. Once I got the Ultimate Warzone book I built one faction of IDMF Imperials, a Romanov Bauhaus group, a Sagienelli (spelling is off today forgive me) Bauhas group, Demnogonis, Ilian, Algeroth... I haven't painted the quantity of figures like I was during that period cause I was just so stoked about the game. May feeble attempts to drum up support locally were shot down. The local shop that actually carried Warzone figs made fun of me for buying the figs of a 'dead' game. And that shop wonders why the feck I do all my buying online rather than spending a dime in their store.
Paradox pulling the plug really upset me. It supremely angered me. Excelsior was disappointing me with the slow releases but felt the company was at least trying to stay the course despite the universal bad mouthing that went on. The whole scenario made me realize how fickle the wargaming hobby is on the business side. It did leave me damaged in regards to buying in to new games. I jsut can't bring myself to buy into a game until it is established. Well, Stone Circle's China Town also can carry some of that weight. I didn't realize companies come and go in this hobby so quickly and often so tragically.
I miss Warzone.

I'll have to concur that the FFG collectible Warzone game in a new scale with prepainted figs holds zero interest to me. I love Warzone but not enough to invest in bendy figs that will be painted to a standard typical of the market today. Not even taking into consideration that the rules behind the game will *NOT* be the Warzone I enjoy playing.

I also can't help but feel the movie is going to trundle off to the Sci-Fi Channel where it will whimper and die... Or Perhaps Joel Hodgson with be invigorated to use it to revive Mystery Science Theater 3000 and he and Mike Nelson will at last appear in the theater together. Yes, I have high hopes for Warzone: the Movie.

As long as Paradox insists on holding all the cards and dealing them out at leisure to a leasing company I don't see things improving. I believe Thom really and honestly made the best effort he could but just had circumstances work against him on so many levels. At least his work at reviving the game got me into it so I am a card carrying convert.

I'm going to drop off here cause I think I'm feeling over the top depressed about the loss of my favorite pretendy fun time happy smiles game all over again.
Title: Re: State of the Nation
Post by: wmeredith on March 15, 2007, 12:43:50 PM
Hello.

The game is good to go for me. I bought two copies of the rulebooks for warzone and will keep playing so long as I have someone to play. The games IP belongs to those fools at paradox, the soul of the game belongs to the players who make it rock. See everyone at Archercon, I have a new Mishima army I am just itchun to throw down with. Meka's Rock.

wmeredith.
Title: Re: State of the Nation
Post by: Gubs on March 15, 2007, 12:46:08 PM
Can anyone think of a line that has changed hands and then  continued to succeed? I can't in this industry.  It seems like once something is out of the hands of its original creators it tends to wither away
Title: Re: State of the Nation
Post by: joshuaslater on March 15, 2007, 12:58:15 PM
Let's see what Brigade Models does with Celtos.  They're slowly putting out new models, and they're a company having taken another's IP.
Title: Re: State of the Nation
Post by: Archer on March 15, 2007, 12:58:41 PM
Can anyone think of a line that has changed hands and then  continued to succeed? I can't in this industry.  It seems like once something is out of the hands of its original creators it tends to wither away

Gubs,

  There is one line in particular I can think of... and it has continued on and expanded even.

Classic Battletech.  TECHNICALLY, the original company (FASA) is no more, with the Weismans quitting and the company closing its doors...

  Wizkids bought it, put out the MechWarrior game and licensed out the old stuff.  FanPro LLC currently holds the license and has since 2k1.  Took a couple of years to get rolling again, in light of the Clix version drowning out the original storyline but they have kept it going with help from the fans...

  There is an example for you. :)
Title: Re: State of the Nation
Post by: DogOWar on March 15, 2007, 01:03:59 PM
That's a good idea. I'd also like to suggest a reccomended (but not mandatory) proxie list for not only for non-existing models, but for hard to find ones as well.

I signed on today to suggest that very thing and here you guys go stealing my thunder. ;D  I was searching thru the old posts looking for that Vulture Impaler proxie and thought " we need a section just for proxies".   I'm very excited about the project  Josh is taking on.  Hope it goes well.  I would prefer to play with "official" minis, but don't see that happening anytime soon.  In the mean time I will shamelessly use whatever I can to keep playing.

As far as events goes, I am hoping to get together with Topkick and his crue to meet up sometime and play some new peoples.  I wish I could make it to Origins this year but thats life, maybe next year.  There is a Con over in Pittsburg, Ks where We play and I plan on doing Chronopia next year to show "show the flag", and heaven help anybody who ries to give me grief about my "dead"  game. >:(
                                                                                                                                                                                   I think Josh is right, this game will only die if we let it.  I plan on hanging around til the lights go out and if need be start my own site.   I have yet to run acroos another game (TTG) that I enjoy as much, plus its the game I and my friends enjoy playing.  I hope I'm still playing it when my son gets old enough to learn.  

'NUFF SAID  
Title: Re: State of the Nation
Post by: joshuaslater on March 15, 2007, 01:15:30 PM
I feel your frustration Matt.  If you produce your own line of miniatures based on art from sources not belonging to Paradox, or Thom, you will have many dedicated fans buying them up.  Cyclopes Forge is doing it.  What's stopping you?

I could shoot you a pic of an old Grenadier model I proxy for my Vulture Impaler.  You could sculpt something along the same lines as there is NO art or design for the model.  Anywhere.  Sculpt the armor along the lines of the Tunnel Fighters and maybe a nod towards matching the army it's designed for and voila, you already have a tiny market waiting for them. 

I make it sound so easy don't I? 
Title: Re: State of the Nation
Post by: Francesco on March 15, 2007, 03:14:29 PM
Cyclopes Forge is doing it.  What's stopping you?


Yes, we are fans and supporter of this games, but the problem (the possible stopping), IMO, is another. This miniatures type don't sell, or don't sell so well as, for example, can selling WH or WH40k proxie. This is a big problem. We hope the market go better in a near future, but I'm not so sure, in my opinion, Excelsior don't sell so much well as can do a simple WH proxie miniatures company. In any case, if we can, we will like to continue to do this minitures type, if not for gain, simple for pleasure for this gaming universe.
Title: Re: State of the Nation
Post by: Gubs on March 15, 2007, 06:23:52 PM
Josh: I think it's been close to a year since Celtos' last release. 

Archer:  Excellent example, Although Wizkids was formed by some ex-R.P. guys who had plenty of experience with the property IIRC.

Title: Re: State of the Nation
Post by: wmeredith on March 15, 2007, 06:34:06 PM
Hello.

I understand your points Gubs, but we are dreamers and idealists here. We dare to believe that some how one way or another we will preserve our game. Maybe we will be crazy/lucky/inspired enough to do it. Till then my motto is have pewter will play.

wmeredith.
Title: Re: State of the Nation
Post by: Coki on March 16, 2007, 01:53:42 AM
The rulebook is imho the best play system in the market (Chronopia, i didn't play Warzone ;) ). The problem is, the most player think rulebook = game system with own figure line.
The future of small system is a split. The rulebook with own creation system for figures (like BattleValue System by Classic BattleTech or Character generator by Roleplaying Systems) is a stand alone part. And the figures line is the another stand alone part.
In the future to play with Chronopia rules, they didn't need only Chronopia figures.

In this form has Chronopia a future.

Coki
Title: Re: State of the Nation
Post by: Archer on March 16, 2007, 04:24:47 AM
Josh: I think it's been close to a year since Celtos' last release. 

Archer:  Excellent example, Although Wizkids was formed by some ex-R.P. guys who had plenty of experience with the property IIRC.

  Close...  WizKids was founded by Mort Weisman's brother Jordan- who was a co-owner of FASA.  He promptly "got rid" of Battletech, selling rights to FANPro to produce... which had a recieved a punch in the gut with the release of Mechwarrior Clix and a storyline hammering.

  I know some of the gents involved with Classic Tech; nice fellas and iirc not amused by the hole they started from.  *shrug*

  All those involved had experience with the property.  But I remember the hue and cry over ClixTech from the regular tech community.  Hell... I was one of them. :)  What FanPro has done with the property is amazing, considering how little initial support there was... but the guys at FP are vets of the game and at least one was a line developer.

  In essence, Battletech passed from FASA to WizKids to FanPro; two hand offs.  And is still around and starting to flourish again (it is the game that will not die, which is a good thing)

  Next question...  ;D
Title: Re: State of the Nation
Post by: masherking on March 16, 2007, 04:30:23 AM
I was thought that Battletech had a HUGE fan base and something like 20yrs of being out in the market. This is what really help that game line find its legs again...also (taking a shot in the dark) most retailers,I believe, dont have any bad history with game line.
Title: Re: State of the Nation
Post by: Archer on March 16, 2007, 05:34:37 AM
I was thought that Battletech had a HUGE fan base and something like 20yrs of being out in the market. This is what really help that game line find its legs again...also (taking a shot in the dark) most retailers,I believe, dont have any bad history with game line.

  Yep.

  The good experiences Retailers had with FASA and the fan-base helped alot.

Warzone had similar early on during the 1st Edition days.  The changeover to Target as sole owner hammered a few folks, especially when 2e came out.

  When the events that led to EE getting the license occured, Target and Paradox had already hammered the systems name; what momentum was there with 1st (hello thirty percent market share!!) almost evaporated, having initially being melted away with the rules... then the year(s) of silence in their fall.

  We will not discuss EE's holding of things.  That is a dead horse. :)
***********

I think the state of the Fanbase is still healthy, though not as healthy as it could be.  With Josh's efforts for Chrono (sporting Thom's blessing helps) and what I hope to run by him, things look to be gaining a little bit of steam.

  Not alot... but at least we still have the game... and people to play with.
Title: Re: State of the Nation
Post by: Coki on March 16, 2007, 09:22:26 AM
  In essence, Battletech passed from FASA to WizKids to FanPro; two hand offs.  And is still around and starting to flourish again (it is the game that will not die, which is a good thing)

  Next question...  ;D

Sry, but CBT is in Germany down. I worked for the MechForce Germany ( www.mechforce.de ) since 1999 and CBT losts in the last 5 years most of her players. They have in germany a very activity fanbase, but the most players a very old (~28-36) and new players are pretty few.
The actually works since good examples for a good work, but they are to expensive (50-60 Euro for Totale Warfare).

Classic BattleTech lost in the next years more Gamer, because it gaves not a good Computer Games (MW5 or MC3), it didn't gaves more good books for Classic BattleTech (only in german, and they are not good), and many more.

Greetings,

Coki
Title: Re: State of the Nation
Post by: Ranzimus on March 21, 2007, 05:47:07 PM
What got me out of Warzone was the second edition.  While the first edition had its problems, the revisions went too far and for me, made the factions very bland.  As long as I'm playing a dead game, I can play first edition with mods but that makes for a small group.  What do most of you play?
Title: Re: State of the Nation
Post by: wmeredith on March 21, 2007, 06:54:11 PM
Hello.

Most of us play the 3rd edition also known as Ultimate Warzone. It is the best edition so far in the opinion of most here, and you may find it very much in tune with what you like.

wmeredith.