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Chronopia => Game Questions => Topic started by: troy-the-just on February 13, 2007, 12:58:00 PM

Title: dream warriors and crystal knights
Post by: troy-the-just on February 13, 2007, 12:58:00 PM
ok, a question

dream warrior, halves the rc or cc of any unit attacking it, rounding up

crystal knight-  all enemy units wihtin 4" negative 2 to their cc and rc

ok, which comes first?  i have a nasty attacking my dream warrior with cc of 15

now,  thats 8, rounded up, minus 2 as he is wihtin 4" of my crystal knight for a cc of 6 0r

the nasty is 15- 2 for crystal knight, 13, divided by 2, 7 rounded up to hit my dream warrior

i can make arguments for both, if interested i will give them to you, of course 1/2 then subtracting 2 is more in favor of elves, taking 2 then dividing reduces the crystal knights effect to -1 not 2

thoughts
Title: Re: dream warriors and crystal knights
Post by: joshuaslater on February 13, 2007, 01:34:55 PM
As it stands, I can think of nothing in the rules that specifically states which special ability is considered first in this situation.  The thing that covers this is the "both players throw a d20, and the winner decides."

Of course, if I were fielding the Crystal Lotus Elves, I would go with 6.  Were my opponent, I'd have to say 7.

Seriously, I don't think this has a cut and dry answer.  I know I'm stumped, and I play this game a lot.  Regardless of the answer, and I hope Southpaw chimes in, I know I will field this cool combination when I run Crystal Lotus!!!!
Title: Re: dream warriors and crystal knights
Post by: Dragon62 on February 13, 2007, 01:38:17 PM
You always count the abilities of the model 1st than add/subtract abilities of other models/banners/etc. Thats as clean cut as it gets. ;D
Title: Re: dream warriors and crystal knights
Post by: troy-the-just on February 13, 2007, 06:25:38 PM
You always count the abilities of the model 1st than add/subtract abilities of other models/banners/etc. Thats as clean cut as it gets. ;D
[/quote

the ability of the model being attacked?  so, the dream warriors go first?  my thought has always been, the crystal knights is a radius effect, so the attacking unit counters it first, reducing his cc by 2 while he is in the radius, if he happens to attack a dream warrior while in that radius, his reduced cc is halved.

i can see the wisdom of saying you are attacking the dream warriors, that halves your cc, oh, and by the way, you are within 4" of a crystal knight so take off two more
Title: Re: dream warriors and crystal knights
Post by: DogOWar on February 13, 2007, 06:41:45 PM
You always count the abilities of the model 1st than add/subtract abilities of other models/banners/etc. Thats as clean cut as it gets. ;D
That is the way I've always seen it.
Title: Re: dream warriors and crystal knights
Post by: Southpaw on February 13, 2007, 07:29:18 PM
If it was me, I would work it just as you were solving a mathematical equation, which is exactly what this is.

1. Multiply
2. Divide
3. Add
4. Subtract

So if I was judging this scenario, I would divide the CC in half (rounded up), then subtract 2, giving a to-hit of 6.

Yes, the 1/2 then subtracting 2 does favor the elves in this situation, as it rightly should, in my opinion. Anyone foolish enough to get caught between Dream Warriors AND a Crystal Knight deserves exactly what they get.  ;D

SP
Title: Re: dream warriors and crystal knights
Post by: Dr. Nick on February 13, 2007, 09:22:50 PM
i think the area effect comes first:

-2 in all cases.

than IF you attack a dw, your chances are 1/2

the 1/2 is the result of phasing out, something like a game of luck (50/50ish)
Title: Re: dream warriors and crystal knights
Post by: Southpaw on February 14, 2007, 04:23:06 AM
i think the area effect comes first:

-2 in all cases.

than IF you attack a dw, your chances are 1/2

the 1/2 is the result of phasing out, something like a game of luck (50/50ish)

I agree, to a point. The -2 is in effect at all times, that is not an issue. What IS an issue, is when they are attacking the Dream Warrior in the radius of a Crystal Knight, you then have multiple effects competing to resolve each other. In this situation, I would think that the divide then subtract solution works for 2 reasons.

1. It agrees with math rules for solving similar problems.

2. It also, to me, would fit the rules for the situation. The model is attacking the Dream Warrior first, he is the primary target, therefore his penalties resolve first. Then the -2 for the Crystal Knight takes effect, since he is within the area of effect, but the Knight is not the primary target.

SP
Title: Re: dream warriors and crystal knights
Post by: troy-the-just on February 14, 2007, 09:16:26 AM
i like southpaws reasoning, a little more mathmatical then mine, so dog, i assume we are going this way?  if so, you can count on my crystal knights being surrounded by a warband or 2 of dream warriors at all times!

really, it may favor the elves, but look at them, they dont have all the perks, etc. the other races have, and this only applies to the crystal house. 
Title: Re: dream warriors and crystal knights
Post by: joshuaslater on February 14, 2007, 09:25:24 AM
The Crystal Lotus house is difficult enough to play as it is, so I don't think this gives them some unfair advantage.  It does make everyone reading this want to try this tactic!
Title: Re: dream warriors and crystal knights
Post by: Coil on February 14, 2007, 09:36:50 AM
I would go with the math line of reasoning.

Josh, CL are are great house. I'd say that Helios or Jade is the weakest Elven house.
Title: Re: dream warriors and crystal knights
Post by: joshuaslater on February 14, 2007, 11:02:16 AM
I've been doing okay with Helios.  They can hold their own.  I haven't played Jade House yet, but next spring I'll prime all my swamp goblins and start with them.
Title: Re: dream warriors and crystal knights
Post by: troy-the-just on February 14, 2007, 12:15:04 PM
i havent played helios, ( i do like the stats on keeper of the flame sisterI am intrigued by the jade.  certainly the obsidian serpant house is very tough, but more in your face tough.  eventually, (and this will be a while as i have dwarves up next), id like to complete sets on all of the elven houses, so i can see which ones i do like best.  dog has helios, ill play them sometime, i do like the jade elves possibilities with the swampies, should be fun.
Title: Re: dream warriors and crystal knights
Post by: DogOWar on February 14, 2007, 02:39:01 PM
i like southpaws reasoning, a little more mathmatical then mine, so dog, i assume we are going this way? if so, you can count on my crystal knights being surrounded by a warband or 2 of dream warriors at all times!

really, it may favor the elves, but look at them, they dont have all the perks, etc. the other races have, and this only applies to the crystal house.
     6 is what I thought it would be in any case.  You know my feelings about the Elves Troy, especially the CL and Helios.  I Have always said (Yes Troy, once again ;D) "You have to keep the individuals with the warbands".  Doing this maximzes both.  The elvish individuals, while extremely cool, are not the the best in armour or wounds compared to most armies (also, not as exspensive either), so are not the best when played solo.  Also, Their special abilities work best with warbands.  I ALWAYS keep my Helios Indiv. next to a warband.  Combined arms is they only way to go for the elves.
i havent played helios, ( i do like the stats on keeper of the flame sisterI am intrigued by the jade. certainly the obsidian serpant house is very tough, but more in your face tough. eventually, (and this will be a while as i have dwarves up next), id like to complete sets on all of the elven houses, so i can see which ones i do like best. dog has helios, ill play them sometime, i do like the jade elves possibilities with the swampies, should be fun.

You can play Helios anytime you wnat Troy.
i like southpaws reasoning, a little more mathmatical then mine, so dog, i assume we are going this way? if so, you can count on my crystal knights being surrounded by a warband or 2 of dream warriors at all times!

really, it may favor the elves, but look at them, they dont have all the perks, etc. the other races have, and this only applies to the crystal house.

     If you remember correctly Troy, I pointed this (Crystal Knight/Dream Warrior) out to you when Canonball's FB defended that hill fort you and I were attacking.  In fact I thought you used it then (it has been a while).  You just never seemed to like the Crystal Knight that much, until recently.  I have always said (Yes Troy, once again ;D) that the Dream Warriors are one of the best units (arguably the best) in the game.  They are Very hard to hit(especially by missile troops), have a two-handed sword, FEINT, and magic resistance, and are only cost 35 pts.  Thats one helluva combo. 
Title: Re: dream warriors and crystal knights
Post by: troy-the-just on February 17, 2007, 06:39:24 PM
your right chris, that was like 2-3 years ago, and like the second or third time i had played. i was still comparing lotus individuals to firstborn indivuals, there really isnt any comparison, i wasnt taking army as a whole.  that repulsar knight is still terrifying.  i should always listen to you, ill have to tell your wife that as well, see you next saturday
Title: Re: dream warriors and crystal knights
Post by: DogOWar on February 17, 2007, 07:13:18 PM
your right chris, that was like 2-3 years ago, and like the second or third time i had played. i was still comparing lotus individuals to firstborn indivuals, there really isnt any comparison, i wasnt taking army as a whole. that repulsar knight is still terrifying. i should always listen to you, ill have to tell your wife that as well, see you next saturday
     The Repulsar Knight still terrifies me. :'(   Yeah, that was a few years ago, too bad we don't get a chance to play more often.  I wouldn't worry to much about listening to me, you seem to be doing fine on your own. :)  I have always felt the CL was a solid army, and the Dream Warriors are just plain cool.
Title: Re: dream warriors and crystal knights
Post by: DogOWar on March 15, 2007, 06:22:42 PM
If it was me, I would work it just as you were solving a mathematical equation, which is exactly what this is.

1. Multiply
2. Divide
3. Add
4. Subtract

So if I was judging this scenario, I would divide the CC in half (rounded up), then subtract 2, giving a to-hit of 6.

Yes, the 1/2 then subtracting 2 does favor the elves in this situation, as it rightly should, in my opinion. Anyone foolish enough to get caught between Dream Warriors AND a Crystal Knight deserves exactly what they get. ;D

SP

OK, I have been thinking this over and brought it up with troy-the-just the last time we played.  This method works well for the Dream Warriors as long as there is a crystal knight on its side.  But lets examine other situations where it does not benfit them:

   An archer is shooting at a Dream Warrior and decides to aim.  Doing it by the rule of math means that you would half its RC and then add the +4 bonus for aim.  In this situation the dream warrior does not have it so good.  It also means the abilities like group attack and berserk would be very advantageous (and maybe they should be).

 I really don't have a problem doing it either way, I just want to make sure that the pros and cons are understood.   
Title: Re: dream warriors and crystal knights
Post by: Southpaw on March 16, 2007, 06:33:33 AM
OK, I have been thinking this over and brought it up with troy-the-just the last time we played.  This method works well for the Dream Warriors as long as there is a crystal knight on its side.  But lets examine other situations where it does not benfit them:

   An archer is shooting at a Dream Warrior and decides to aim.  Doing it by the rule of math means that you would half its RC and then add the +4 bonus for aim.  In this situation the dream warrior does not have it so good.  It also means the abilities like group attack and berserk would be very advantageous (and maybe they should be).

 I really don't have a problem doing it either way, I just want to make sure that the pros and cons are understood.   


There are pros and cons to both methods, depending upon certain figures in certain situations, but, I think, it does balance out in the end, by keeping things congruent and even, it prevents possible other situations from arising.

In the situation you mentioned above, yes the final resut does favor the archer. Using an exmaple of RC 10, you get a final result of 9 if you halve first, then add +4, versus RC 7 if you add first, then divide.

Should this situation favor the archer? Yes, I believe it should.

In games such as this, it's all about checks and balances. One must weigh the advantages of the stat line versus potential disadvantages, to create as balanced a game as possible, in theory of course.

The Dream Warriors have a couple of abilities that are rarely used, and no doubt on the pricey list in the point scheme of things: Feint and Magic Resistance. Combined with their Phasing, decent CC, AND a 2-handed weapon, you get a model that, in my opinion mind you, is a steal for its point cost.

It does have one glaring weakness: an abysmal AR of 12. Therein lies the key. For all their bonuses, a unit must have a weak point, otherwise an unbalance in the game system is created. For the Dream Warriors, it is that low armor value.

So, applying mathematical principles to every situation does not always benefit the same model in the same situation. This is as it should be, I feel. Math is a fickle lady, to say the least, and miniature gaming even moreso. No, it won't benefit the same model in every situation, nor should it. It all comes down to a balance issue.

SP

Title: Re: dream warriors and crystal knights
Post by: Topkick on March 16, 2007, 06:52:57 AM
*sniff* I'm so proud. I was afraid no one was listening all those years I was pontificating about game balance and here Southpaw states the case eloquently. Karma to you my friend
Title: Re: dream warriors and crystal knights
Post by: Southpaw on March 16, 2007, 07:17:44 AM
I learned from the best, big bro. Karma back at you.

SP
Title: Re: dream warriors and crystal knights
Post by: DogOWar on March 16, 2007, 12:40:10 PM
While searching the different FAQs I came across the answer for this.  Sorry, should have looked there first.  Thanks for taking the time out to answer the question Southpaw.
Title: Re: dream warriors and crystal knights
Post by: Southpaw on March 19, 2007, 08:50:29 AM
My pleasure, as always. Didn't realize it had already been posted in the FAQ. I'll print it out and review.

SP
Title: Re: dream warriors and crystal knights
Post by: PhillySniper on June 26, 2007, 06:30:26 AM
This combo is a very nasty one. Ive used it recently. The only point I have to make is ...
 
DONT LET THEM GET CAUGHT BY A HAIL OF ARROWS  :(
.
I didnt realise until recently that HOA ignores their phasing ability. Its a mistake I wont make again  ;)
The Crystal Knight makes everyone around him better. Try putting him with a large warband of militia and watch the effort that has to go into getting rid of them. At worst they become a very nasty diversion at best they can tie up alot of points.
Title: Re: dream warriors and crystal knights
Post by: DogOWar on June 26, 2007, 08:53:32 PM
I think that the Crystal Knight/Dream Warrior combo is one of the nastiest in the game. 
Title: Re: dream warriors and crystal knights
Post by: Coldthunder on October 08, 2007, 01:35:58 PM
The Crystal Knight's Affect is enviromental and should take effect first where as the attack on the Dream Warriors is due to an action on the part of the attackers. Due to the timeing The minus two should come before the Halving. ;D
Title: crystal knights
Post by: troy-the-just on November 06, 2007, 12:20:35 PM
does the crystal knights aurora have any additional effects on cold blooded creatures?  is his attack cold based
Title: Re: dream warriors and crystal knights
Post by: DogOWar on November 06, 2007, 05:43:07 PM
does the crystal knights aurora have any additional effects on cold blooded creatures?  is his attack cold based

I would say no, unless otherwise stated in the book.
Title: Re: dream warriors and crystal knights
Post by: troy-the-just on November 07, 2007, 07:20:05 AM
thats kinda what i thought, but it is a extreme cold auora, it woudl make sense that it effects cold blooded more
Title: Re: dream warriors and crystal knights
Post by: DogOWar on November 07, 2007, 03:23:35 PM
I agree, but liike alot of stuff, it just ain't in the book. :(