Excelsior Entertainment Forums

Warzone => Game Questions => Topic started by: chribu on December 24, 2006, 03:57:22 AM

Title: Euthanasi squads
Post by: chribu on December 24, 2006, 03:57:22 AM
Euthanasi squads: require 1-3 models
Do two 1-model euthanasi squads qualify for a greymourn?
Title: Re: Euthanasi squads
Post by: dmcgee1 on December 24, 2006, 06:27:14 AM
This is a good question for the FAQ Team.  I will post it.

My opinion is divided.  Yes - two grunts squads qualify a support.  However, the Mortar Crew is three models.  I would think that the Euthanasi need to have at least one three-model squad in order to qualify a three-man support squad.  I could be (and, probably am) wrong.
Title: Re: Euthanasi squads
Post by: Dr. Nick on December 27, 2006, 09:10:05 AM
sqads below 4 LP should not qualify at all..
(-> also grunt and elite should qualify for support, not faq but "recommandet play")
Title: Re: Euthanasi squads
Post by: Dragon62 on December 27, 2006, 09:22:44 AM
IMHO yes they would qualify for a support unit or and Individual but not for an elite squad since there are no 1 man elite squads for that list.
Title: Re: Euthanasi squads
Post by: Coil on December 27, 2006, 11:48:48 AM
Euthanasi are Grunts and thus qualify you to buy Elites (if you can find any with a Squad size of 1-3) or Individuals.

The rules also state that you need two Grunt Squads to purchase a Support Unit. There is no requirement like there is for Grunts-Elites that it has to be equal or greater in size. So two 1 model Euthanasi squads allows you to buy one Greymourn.

If you ask me the Inheriors can use all the advantages they can get. :)
Title: Re: Euthanasi squads
Post by: Wedge on December 27, 2006, 02:55:11 PM
Personally, I think a 1 man squad is technically an individual.  Somehow this must have been missed.  I wouldn't argue about the current status now, but I think Euthanasi squads should be 2-4 and not 1-3.  It may have been a typo or an oversight.  Are there any other squads of 1-3 like this anywhere?
Title: Re: Euthanasi squads
Post by: Pietia on December 27, 2006, 04:15:56 PM
Wedge, remember, that 2-4 man Euthanasi squads mean, that you can field huge cavalry armies with MV5 flamer specialists, using grunts costing 28 points per squad to qualify for those cavalry elites (right now you can almost do that - the cavalry fits, but the specialist does not)... it has some serious cheese potential. On the other hand, right now you could field e.g. ten additional activations for 70 points - a huge advantage in the early game. I believe, that euthanasi were meant as sacrifices that would fuel various powers of the Inheritor spellcasters, but they have multiple additional uses, that make the Inheritors quite a powerful army.
Title: Re: Euthanasi squads
Post by: Archer on December 27, 2006, 06:03:48 PM
Wedge, remember, that 2-4 man Euthanasi squads mean, that you can field huge cavalry armies with MV5 flamer specialists, using grunts costing 28 points per squad to qualify for those cavalry elites (right now you can almost do that - the cavalry fits, but the specialist does not)... it has some serious cheese potential. On the other hand, right now you could field e.g. ten additional activations for 70 points - a huge advantage in the early game. I believe, that euthanasi were meant as sacrifices that would fuel various powers of the Inheritor spellcasters, but they have multiple additional uses, that make the Inheritors quite a powerful army.

Damn it Pietia...  You are Chuffing the Plan!! 

*sigh*

 ;) ;) ;D ;D ;) ;)
Title: Re: Euthanasi squads
Post by: Dragon62 on December 28, 2006, 07:34:41 AM
Wedge The Mounted Hussars are a 1-2 + 1 LD, the HMG-85T is a 1 man squad, and the Shadow Walkers-Nagano are a 1-2 man squad, there are also a couple 2-3 man squads.
Title: Re: Euthanasi squads
Post by: dmcgee1 on December 28, 2006, 08:17:58 AM
Technically, an individual is a squad - of one.
Title: Re: Euthanasi squads
Post by: Wedge on December 28, 2006, 08:25:56 AM
Well, then I guess there is a potential for some abuse.  But, I don't normally play with unreasonable opponents so I think the abuse would be a rare occurrence.  If someone fielded an army of dozens of one man euthanasi squads and a buttload of greymourns I would say, "Congratulations, you won!"  Then I'd walk away.  I wouldn't give him the time of day.  I abhor players to power game/cheese out their armies just because they can and then do so... It may be fun for them but not for their opponents.
Title: Re: Euthanasi squads
Post by: Dragon62 on December 28, 2006, 08:58:00 AM
As long as I knew up front some wanted to play that type of army i'd play against them. There is the potential with every army list to play a cheese force and to beat an army of 27 1 man + 3 2man, 1 LD with 2 spells and 15 support 64 total miniatures I'd simply use a completely infiltrating Semia army. Nullifies Mortars and reveals multible cards as you activate a squad. I'd enjoy the challange.
Title: Re: Euthanasi squads
Post by: Archer on December 28, 2006, 09:43:20 AM
As long as I knew up front some wanted to play that type of army i'd play against them. There is the potential with every army list to play a cheese force and to beat an army of 27 1 man + 3 2man, 1 LD with 2 spells and 15 support 64 total miniatures I'd simply use a completely infiltrating Semia army. Nullifies Mortars and reveals multible cards as you activate a squad. I'd enjoy the challange.

  Heck... I'd welcome that challenge too.  The first turn would be annoying by turns 2 thru 4 rather satisfying.  I could almost guarentee a four turn win, depending on the army I am fielding and point value.
Title: Re: Euthanasi squads
Post by: Coil on December 28, 2006, 12:14:36 PM
I'm not sure there is that much to abuse. What type of armies can you build?

In a 1000 pt army you could go for:
32 squads of 1 Euthanasi 224
16 Greymourn 736
1 Cavalier Scout 35
995

Or if you like horses
6 squads of 3 Euthanasi 126
6 squads of 3 Cavaliers 540
5 Heavy Cavaliers (Black Heart and Cross) 300
1 Cavalier Scout 35
1001 pts (remove a tattoo from one Heavy to come under 1000)

But are those armies any good?

Sure you get lots of Cavaliers but you're basically paying an extra 7 pts per Cavalier for nothing since the main point of the horses are their speed and a MV 2 cripple isn't going to do any good. Since you are limited to 3 models in the Elites you can't get the nice flamer specialist.

You could of course do as I did and add in the nice Heavy Cavalier who could limit themselves by hanging back with the cripples and transfer wounds to them with the Cross.

16 mortars looks scary but with terrain blocking LOS and creating dead zones their effectiveness is reduced. They also cannot shoot with the mortar at PB and SR.

I'd take on the mortar gimmick army and kick it's ass.


Title: Re: Euthanasi squads
Post by: Coil on December 28, 2006, 12:38:37 PM
Thought of another version of the horse list with more HMGs
7*2 Euthanasi
7*2 Cavaliers (Black Heart)
7 Heavy Cavaliers (Black Heart and Cross)
Cavalier Scout
980 pts

But is it worth it?
Title: Re: Euthanasi squads
Post by: Pietia on December 28, 2006, 01:06:14 PM
Coil - now it's quite ok. However, if the euthanasi squads get a size change from 1-3 to 2-4 - as Wedge proposed - there will be a problem:
4-man euthanasi squad: 28
3 cavaliers+FT specialist: 136
total: 164, repeat as many times, as you want. Result? E.g. a 1000 points army list will have 13 activations (add 1 2-man euthanasi squads), 7 euthanasi squads go first (at this moment a lot of armies this size will nearly run out of activations), and then you have 6 activations with 2 WD MV5 flamethrowers (and 6 AR 20 "ablative wounds" per activation in the form of regular cavaliers. Armed and dangerous wounds). Oh - and those guys have guerilla training, so you're shooting at them at -1. If you play on a table with at least moderate amount of cover, the oponent is not in trouble - he's already dead, the execution is merely a formality.
Title: Re: Euthanasi squads
Post by: Coil on December 28, 2006, 01:27:21 PM
Don't worry Pietia ,we're not going to change the size of the Eutanasi. :)
Title: Re: Euthanasi squads
Post by: Wedge on December 28, 2006, 06:14:17 PM
Coil is quite correct.  I wasn't saying that we should change them.  I was simply stating that I think it may have been an oversight in the army construction or a typo.

And to add, I too could thoroughly trounce an ALL cheesed out Inheritors Army like that with my average Semai army in a heartbeat.
Title: Re: Euthanasi squads
Post by: Pietia on December 28, 2006, 07:25:02 PM
As for Euthanasi being an oversight - maybe they are. Honestly said, I think, that the squad sizes here should be more like 10-30, not 2-4. Why should they have more flexibility than practically any squad? They should work more like the Heretic Legionnaires, Disciplies or other "horde" units.
And when it comes to trouncing in a heartbeat - confidence is good, only remember the Murphy laws of war - if the enemy is in range, so are you.
Title: Re: Euthanasi squads
Post by: Manic _Miner on December 29, 2006, 01:36:01 AM
 Just to let you know Cyclopes Forge will be releasing a miniature called the Phantom I tink it was and he will be like the Lutherans.Not sure which one at the moment but I cant wait to find out.Hopefully we will be able to get a hold of those lovely mounted miniatures that were showen some time back.
 Are the Euthanasi still available?
Title: Re: Euthanasi squads
Post by: Coil on December 29, 2006, 06:20:33 AM
I do not think that Euthanasi were ever intended to be a horde unit like legionnaires. Euthanasi are non-combatants to be used as meatshields similar to Drugged for the Stygians.

Amost alll Inheritor units can take the tattoo to transfer wounds or just use them to block LOS. But are they really worth using for allt hose units. Both the Cavalry and the foot troops are high movement troops that need to get close. Slowing down to MV 2 so that the cripples can keep up isn't effective.

The only units I'd use them with are Heavy Cavaliers (if you intend to keep them in a more stationary fire support role) and Patriarchs (to keep him alive or as fuel for spells).
Title: Re: Euthanasi squads
Post by: Pietia on December 29, 2006, 01:05:40 PM
By horde unit I mean something, that comes in squads with large minimum size. Euthanasi should be one of them - in all other armies small sized squads are for powerful or experienced troops with high flexibility. Somehow I don't see units of old, crippled people as flexible, small sized teams...
Title: Re: Euthanasi squads
Post by: Dr. Nick on December 29, 2006, 10:38:20 PM
same for me..
best they should be like the drugged -> troop option for squad, not separete unit (+qualifining for support)
Title: Re: Euthanasi squads
Post by: Veez on January 03, 2007, 12:11:20 PM
By horde unit I mean something, that comes in squads with large minimum size. Euthanasi should be one of them - in all other armies small sized squads are for powerful or experienced troops with high flexibility. Somehow I don't see units of old, crippled people as flexible, small sized teams...

Apparently you never heard of the mall walker riots of 1987.  Apparently "Golden Girls" got cancelled on a local TV station.  It got ugly quick.
Title: Re: Euthanasi squads
Post by: Wedge on January 03, 2007, 12:27:07 PM
By horde unit I mean something, that comes in squads with large minimum size. Euthanasi should be one of them - in all other armies small sized squads are for powerful or experienced troops with high flexibility. Somehow I don't see units of old, crippled people as flexible, small sized teams...

Apparently you never heard of the mall walker riots of 1987.  Apparently "Golden Girls" got cancelled on a local TV station.  It got ugly quick.

 :D
Title: Re: Euthanasi squads
Post by: chribu on January 21, 2007, 01:23:09 PM
so is there a final answer to this question? It came up again during the last tournament we played..

- Do two 1-model euthanasi squads qualify for a greymourn? -
Title: Re: Euthanasi squads
Post by: Dragon62 on January 21, 2007, 01:27:53 PM
The answer is yes.
Title: Re: Euthanasi squads
Post by: Coil on January 21, 2007, 02:14:12 PM
Correct.

Quoting myself from the first page of the thread
Quote
Euthanasi are Grunts and thus qualify you to buy Elites (if you can find any with a Squad size of 1-3) or Individuals.

The rules also state that you need two Grunt Squads to purchase a Support Unit. There is no requirement like there is for Grunts-Elites that it has to be equal or greater in size. So two 1 model Euthanasi squads allows you to buy one Greymourn.