Excelsior Entertainment Forums
Chronopia => Game Questions => Topic started by: DogOWar on October 04, 2006, 07:51:21 AM
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What would happen if 2 tunneling minis came into "base to base" contact while tunneling(say for instance an Abyss Crawler and a Desert Crawler).
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it would be madness...cats and dogs living together.....madness
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Hey Masher how do you make the "Madness" role anyway? Use each warband's leadership like panic or highest leadership ilke initiative ;D.
I ask the original question because I was looking over the stygian army list and they are one bad mofo. Their army has everything to choose from, and I was trying to think of various ways to counter them :-\.
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As the rules stand now, there are no "depth bands" to indicate how deep under the ground the tunneler is, so it can be assumed that they are just below the surface like a shark (without the fin giving it away). Also in the tunneling rules it says it takes one action to surface, so it can be duked out by models who are both tunnelers. Remember that you cannot run while tunneling, so that will affect their confrontation.
@masherking; I'm in the dog camp myself. Los gatos--forget'em.
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I don't see any need for depth bands, atleast not yet. I guess what I really want to know is if say the Abyss Crawler moved into "base to base" with the desert Crawler would that be a "charge" sort of thing and force the two to surface and fight it out, or nothing happens and the DC can just tunnel around the AB.
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Any move that brings them in contact would be a charge. It wouldn't force the other model to surface. I think if the other model wanted to surface (move action), if it survived the charge, you would need a break test.
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Nothing would happen. They cannot fight underground.
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I would have to agree with coil. While underground a model doesn't have a "base" anyway. It is only a marker for that very reason--I would think.
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Charges must be declared so the models could not go into base-to-base without declaring a charge and you cannot declare a charge against something you cannot see. Ergo nothing would happen.
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Charges must be declared so the models could not go into base-to-base without declaring a charge and you cannot declare a charge against something you cannot see. Ergo nothing would happen.
But you could enter the tuneel left behind my the first tunneler and attack him from behind ;D ;D
When that Stygian Worm can bring some 500 points of troops with him through his tunnels...others should be able to use that tunnel too... ;)
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Are you reading my mind. I was just writing down some notes last night of things to ask, and that was one of my first. This beggars all kinds of questions: how big is the tunnel; can you even tunnel towards a tunneling model( how would you know where he is?); can you fight in the tunnel? Thats all I have for now.
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If a tunneling model can "pop" to the surface and attack a model/unit, unseen, then I don't see why it wouldn't sense another model underground. This is one of those things that could be argued either way.
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I'll refer back to the previous posts by Coil and myself and others.
Fighting underground is a no go. I don't think the rules were intended to cover such a RARE contingency. An Abyss Crawler facing either a Tenebrous Crawler or Desert worm is only going to happen if Devout is playing Stygian, the opposing teams choose tunnelers, and they approach each other underground. That's a whole lot of what if's.
I would think they pass by each other without contact.
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i think it comes down to this...are you playing at the surface and a model is tunneling...well no combat allowed...altough flyers can attack each other in air as well....the second alternativ would be to play on some kind of cavern/tunnel-map...then you would be underground...and rules for this type of game are provided by the rule book...
just my two cents...
Anomander Rake
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If this had popped up at the last con I got people together for Chronopia, I would've let'em duke it out. If my ruling was proved wrong later I'd apologize, but I always like to err on the side of fun and duking it out in close combat.
How does the tunneler know where enemy models are on the surface? If the Abyss Crawler knows where they are, why wouldn't it be aware of another model underground?
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Josh, have you ever played with terrain? ;) ;D
How do your troops know where the enemy troops are? And why do they react to that info when they have no line of sight? It's a game, and every game has some flaws...playing souble-blind games would work on pc-supported system but in a tabletop enviroment it would be hard to play...
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I'm just saying that a tunneling model can go right under terrain, and pop up close to an enemy unit that technically, it doesn't have line of sight to, as it's underground right? I imagine an Abyss Crawler would hear the digging of another tunneler underground if its senses are sharp enough to know when to spring on those on the surface.
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Certainly some interesting theories on how this "could" work, but I think for the simplicity of game balance, and the rarity of the occurrence, I would still rule that it cannot happen.
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I dont really understand why this is an issue at all. I dont think that Chronopia needs extra rules for tunnlers ^^. At least it never come up in any of the games my group played.
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If I recall correctly, I believe the rules for Tunnel state that a model can only be given Move actions while underground. I will check to verify.
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Southpaw's right IIRC. It states you can only take move actions while tunneling. I think that's fine, but in the super rare occasion where two tunnelers collide, I'd let'em fight. All this depends on whether you use the three burrowing markers as well when you play, as was the new ruling on tunnelers.
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First, I would like to thank everyone who chimed in on this. I understod from the beginning that this is a pretty big "if", but, since (apparently) no one had thought of this before that it would make for an interesting discussion, and I think it has. My intention was not to push for new rule(s) or anything like that. I'm still not sure what I would do if this were to come up in a game I'm in, guess I'll cross that bridge when it gets here.
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Thom was telling me that Excelsior was going to have new tunneling rules to cover this. We'll see when he finally gets his computer working and chimes in. You'll always find civilized discussion around here. Chronopia and Warzone players are cut from a different cloth than others.
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Well, the new Tunneling rules that were proposed would have required increasing the cost of every Tunneling unit quite a lot.
Tunelling works just fine in Chrono so why break it?
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I think at this point the chronopia rules are nearly perfect. Just play them as they are and have fun :)
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I agree the rules are fine, and just needed a little clarifying. I can't say everything new from Thom was needed, but we do use the tunneling markers. When we deploy a tunneler, we use three different color dice or markers, and write down which one is the tunneler and put it in a pocket. It hasn't changed anything with game balance at all.
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Hello My Peeps,
Canonball and I were talking about this the other day. He is playing Stygian now (thanks to yours truly), and I play Devout, and we both love the "Crawler(s)" in both armies. So, this big "IF" may see the light of day this year. I like the idea that it blocks movement, partly because those Stygian crawlers do great damage, but also adds a more tactical twist to having 2 on the board.
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And I would still have to say that tunnelers cannot fight each other underground. There is a reason you remove the model from play and use a marker to mark their location on the board. Two markers moving underground at the same time pass like ships in the night. No effect. That's my two cents.
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Under the current rulebook Tunnelers cannot attack or be atteacted when tunneling. As Josh mentioned there was talk about new rules for tunnelers and the ability to attack other tunnelers underground since more models with tunneling were going to be added in the future. So until Thom releases any of that info I would say it's to be played as the rulebook says. IMHO, but everyone is entitled to use there own house rules if they choose. ;D ;D ;D
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And I would still have to say that tunnelers cannot fight each other underground. There is a reason you remove the model from play and use a marker to mark their location on the board. Two markers moving underground at the same time pass like ships in the night. No effect. That's my two cents.
Under the current rulebook Tunnelers cannot attack or be atteacted when tunneling. As Josh mentioned there was talk about new rules for tunnelers and the ability to attack other tunnelers underground since more models with tunneling were going to be added in the future. So until Thom releases any of that info I would say it's to be played as the rulebook says. IMHO, but everyone is entitled to use there own house rules if they choose. ;D ;D ;D
I'm not diagreeing with you, for reasons I just stated, I was just pointing out there is a good chance it could happen. Along with most people I don't see a need to compl;icate the game more, just thought it was an interesting tidbit.
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i would say to treat it like they are attempting to come up under terrain and make them deviate their tunneling. i can see it coming up, we seem to have lots of things come up here at the 4-state militia that doesnt seem to be a problem for others.
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To paraphrase John Lennon: "There ain't no problems, only solutions." Please share your house rules for how you resolve this, and we can all hash out ideas on this.
I can tell you firsthand, we've got plenty of rules questions and house rules, and full on things we've done wrong for years!! It's been a learning curve that keeps going on, in my case. I think the 4-state-militia has got it going on.
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Coil has the right answer. They can't fight underground. They need to surface. Cut and dry.
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I'd still let'em fight. If the tunnelers in this magical fantasy setting can move underground, know where to pop up and eat the other models on the board, I'd say they can be aware of each other underground. I wouldn't give a charge bonus, as you can't run while tunneling, and maybe I'd make it one action to get into contact with another tunneler, but I'm sure this rare phenomenon could always be settled by anyone at my table, with some chat, and if it came down to it, a die roll. As long as you spell out what you're both doing before battle commences, I'd say roll with it.
In a tournament, I'd have to say play by the book, and make them surface to fight.
If more tunnelers appear in the future, maybe this can be looked at more closely, and the rules delineated a tad more.
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I never really cared either way. I jsut thought it was an intersesting and enjoyable disscusion. I would abide by the concensus of the FAQ team and let them pass each other.
"Strangers underground exchanging glances, wondering underground, what were the chances, they would do some wounds!" ;D
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I like the poetry. :D
As it stands, yes, no hard and fast rules are in place for tunnelers to fight, and really it only applies to the Stygian and the Devout. As usual, the Great Arbiter is in the book for a reason.
I've had plenty of games where something came up and the d20 was thrown to work out something. It's right there in the book.
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and we have used the 20 a couple of times, normally after 20-30 minutes of logical (and sometimes drunken) reasoning. many time we come to a consensus, we just try to get this things decided on before we play so we can take them into account for strategy and so it wont take away from our precious game time, or drinking time
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Applaud button hit for that!! You seem to have your priorities in order.
I always find myself quoting sculptor Matt Gubser about anything gaming: "Let's keep this toy soldier stuff in perspective."