Excelsior Entertainment Forums
Warzone => Open Discussion => Topic started by: Veez on February 26, 2006, 05:00:17 AM
-
Frankly everyone here is moping around like it's the end of the world.
First-the game will go on. It's the fans who have kept this game together time and time again. The future for Warzone is bright with the movie tie-in (no matter how badly the movie may or may not suck). Someone will pick up the line (for pete's sake, SST has a line years after even the CGI series died). If the WZ movie goes well, there is every reason to believe Chronopia will get picked up and perhaps even a movie of its own.
Second-EE has hooked us up rightly well. They have provided a comprehensive set of rules and stats for dang near every figure ever produce (I'm still waiting on my Super Razide stats guys). Sure some models are missing but there is an entire universe of proxies out there. My only regret is that some of the greens may never see the light of day (dying for a surveiler). We have rules. We have figs. We have PFC Joe to answer any question that might come along.
Now break out the dice and lets see some gaming.
-
Although I'm not certain that I agree with the colorful nature in which this message is delivered, I am in full agreement with its intent.
Yes, we must move on! That is why I am hosting a local UWZ tourney out of my house today. I have a bunch of guys that are just excited about playing because they enjoy the universe and the mechanics of the game. And that is what is ultimately important. So, I need to thank Thom and crew for bringing this game back to the limelight, even if it was only for a brief time.
I will start a thread and post some pics of how things went in the tourney.
-
Veez,
While I also agree that we should not immediately throw ourselves off a "Gaming Cliff", I must warn you that the colorful language and innuendo used in your post is against forum rules. I know you self-edited your own curse word but the intent is still there. Please refrain from using such means of communication in the future.
-
personally, i'm quite happy with EE's doing (i mean, the big manual, being able to use all the old models from previous editions).
I'm worried that in the future they might change Warzone to a collectable miniature game or that the old models won't be compatible with the new rules.
-
Awww ya'll do love me =)
I know I have everyone behind me when I say that we love Warzone and the Mutant Chronicles universe and we'll be right there with it until it finds a new home, wherever that may be.
(and yeah, i'm terrified that the next lic. holder will go towards a collectible sort of game.)
-PFC joe
-
I disagree, I have some fantastic lousy rubber heinously pre-painted figs that are not gathering dust in the bottom of my gaming shelf (only because they are in a sealed container). I'm sure each set of core rules will come with an eight page foldout eye chart that states what every special power is on each fig and it will have a great back story which no one knows because the only place it is spell out is an obscure website and the one paragraph blurb on the back of the box that is generic enough to be about anything for Warzone to Watership Downs: the Hopping.
I'm sure that WOTC/Hasbro is standing by to make our lives hell.
BTW-sorry 'bout the naught mouth. I'll find some soap.
-
Warzone is great, and its current incarnation is the greatest its ever been. So even without mini's in production or the active support of a manufacturer we will continue to play, I don't think thats ever been in question. What I guess to be the main cause of angst, is a combination of uncertainty about the products future, and possibly more apt a feeling of comiseration for the folks at EE who gave us an excellent rule set and started to really raise the bar for both properties, who have now had the rug pulled right out from beneath them, and will now have to drastically modifiy their business plan if they hope to continue to operate. This, compounded by other personal challenges, means very difficult times ahead for EE, and I know I speak for everyone here when I say I want nothing but the best for the people who brought us such an awsome game.
As for the Future of Warzone I very much doubt there would be interest on the part of Hasbro/WOTC, the necessary investment and consequent risk are far too high. Currently all mini's produced by WOTC are plastic, the molds they would inherit from EE, were they to be awarded the license, are for Pewter casting and will not take plastic. This means that before production can even begin WOTC would either have to retool they're production process to include the production of Pewter minis, vulcanize new molds suitable for casting plastics, or most expensively resculpt the whole line. This means a high initial production cost, and consequently a high break even sales point. WOTC carefully weighs the break even point against market size before making any investment, and due to the niche appeal of Warzone and the small current pool of consumers they would have to grow the market in order to even break even, of course growing the market means advertising which further raises the front end costs of a product reducing the eventual return on investment. Lastly Warzone is a Licensed product, which means licensing fees and perhaps oversight by the Licenser (As is the case with Lucas Film Licencing Inc. and Star Wars Minis) This means production delays and additional costs.
This is why I predict that if the license finds a new home it will be with a more immature company more willing to accept risk, much like WOTC was in the early 90's when they tried to make a go of things in the then nascent Collectable Card Game industry.
-
I am also hoping that things turn out ok. I would humby suggest that a major faction of Warzone fans would debate the best incarnation ever statement. I think the core rules are quite good. But, their present presentatiion is not. The inclusion of OLD sculpts into the game as seperate troop types was a poor choice and will hopefully disappear. I would vigorously debate that EE 'RAISED' the bar in any meaningful way for Warzone. That may have been part of the issue. Who knows.............
Thanks,
John
-
I can see missteps and potential errors in the EE handling of the Warzone license, but I can't see the inclusion of old sculpts as one of them. I for one don't want to have a whole ton of minis rendered useless by a rules change.
-
I can see missteps and potential errors in the EE handling of the Warzone license, but I can't see the inclusion of old sculpts as one of them. I for one don't want to have a whole ton of minis rendered useless by a rules change.
When Target released new sculpts for "old" units, they did not tell anybody, that the old sculpts are no longer "legal". You could field the old, ugly, big-headed Brotherhood troopers or the new, beautiful Trooper sculpts - it was your choice. So that would not be a problem, if EE decided to do it the right way.
Unfortunately, their decision to allow use of "old" sculpts not as alternate minis for a unit, but as a completely different units meant, that in some armies you HAD to buy the fugly minis in order to field a competitive army. Not everybody wants to spend their money on old sculpts.
The result? I tried to convert some of my friends to Warzone. After several demo games the typical result was "it plays great, but some of the miniatures are so ugly..." and they went straight to playing games with nice, new minis, like Warmachine or Confrontation (or 40k....). The "visual" aspect of this hobby is very important - if it weren't, we could as well be playing with cardboard counters.
No matter, what happens with the rules, I hope that the license will be picked up with a company that has both money and manpower, so that a single burnt-out casting pod or personal problems of a single person will not cause 2-3 months of pause in company operations, and the company will have enough resources to release new products on a regular basis. Even if the new rules will suck, we can play with the old ones with new minis...
-
You nailed it. The crux of the biscuit is that any new company taking over the license would have to have hundreds of thousands of dollars to resculpt and produce the lines for both games--I don't see anyone risking that kind of capital.
Even if an independent sculptor like Kev White for example, took over and produced the models, then they would still lose money because they would have to pay for the licensing. There's no easy solution to this. It seems like a small company could fill this niche market, but with the movie coming out, I'm sure people are seeing money coming from other directions.
We'll see what happens.
-
I am also hoping that things turn out ok. I would humby suggest that a major faction of Warzone fans would debate the best incarnation ever statement.
Are you speaking for them? I am not trying to start a fight but where are you pulling this information from?
I think the core rules are quite good.
I agree.
But, their present presentatiion is not. The inclusion of OLD sculpts into the game as seperate troop types was a poor choice and will hopefully disappear.
This is debatable. Some people really liked some of the older sculpts. I know there are some that I prefer.
I would vigorously debate that EE 'RAISED' the bar in any meaningful way for Warzone. That may have been part of the issue. Who knows.............
As opposed to what? No Warzone or Chronopia at all? In my opinion that raises the bar from 0 to 100. Could the product have been much better? Sure, there is always room for improvement. But nothing is ever truly error free.
And for future note, I am only stating my opinions--not my opinions as facts or on behalf of anyone else.
-
also i hope the forum can be exported so that it is not all lost again...
-
The result? I tried to convert some of my friends to Warzone. After several demo games the typical result was "it plays great, but some of the miniatures are so ugly..." and they went straight to playing games with nice, new minis, like Warmachine or Confrontation (or 40k....). The "visual" aspect of this hobby is very important - if it weren't, we could as well be playing with cardboard counters.
I guess this is an area where your friends and I differ, I think the rules are by a large margin the most important element to a game. When I first started Playing Warzone back in 96 I was 14 years old and broke. To this day some of the most memorable games of warzone I can recall were played using 3/4" diameter dowels cut in 1.5" lengths as proxies. We just wrote what the unit was on the top with a fine point marker and before you could say bob's your uncle we had a game going. Sure cool minis are nice but give me a choice between a good ruleset that allows for a fun fast paced game or the best looking mini I've ever seen and I will choose the ruleset every time.
Of course the reality is with any company you will get something in the middle of those two extremes, and while there is certainly more I would have liked to see EE do with the product I think that what they DID do was superior to everything that had preceded it. The minis that got released were better than any of the Heartbreaker or Target sculpts that preceded them, and the new ruleset was better balanced and more fun to play than either the first or second edition. It is these points that I feel provide evidence that EE really did raise the bar with their work on Warzone.
-
If I can throw my hat into this discussion, I really find myself in agreement with John on some of these issues. While I tremendously appreciate the work that Thom did for these games, I was less than thrilled by the UWZ rulebook. While it went a thanfully long way towards fixing what I considered problems with 2nd Ed., I felt it ultimately fell short of what made 1st Ed. so much fun, and so popular. (Just a note, but at the peak of WZ's popularity, when the 2nd Ed. boxed set first appeared, the game was outselling Warhammer Fantasy in the U.S.). Now before anybody cries out about 1st Ed.'s balance issues or just assumes that the "fun" I'm talking about was cybernetic arm equipped, command helmet wearing, Nimrod Autocannon carrying heroes, I can assure you, it wasn't. And, unfortunately, my gaming group has long been of the same opinion, resulting in me being the only one to purchase any of the later incarnations of the game.
Second, I agree about the mistake of including older sculpts as individual unit types. Of course, you are right Wedge, in that some people prefer some of the sculpts. Heck, I've developed a renewed fondness for the Copplestone sculpted troops that were first released for the game and think the Capitol Special Forces figures are some of the best sci-fi models ever sculpted - far better than the resculpted Sea Lions that replaced half of them.
However, as Pietia noted, requiring individuals to buy horrible looking figures (and for as many old sculpts as we may like, everyone has at least one they dislike) to complete their army when newer figures, sculpted purposely to replace the old, are available seems like business suicide - especially in a business as depended on aesthetic value as the miniatures industry.
And that, Gallagher, is why I would have to respectfully disagree with you. While a solid ruleset is what keeps players around long after a game dies off, it is high quality miniatures that attracts the unfamiliar gamer, whether by seeing pictures on the net or stumbling across the blisters in the store. If your introduction to Warzone came through randomly picking up ol' Beach Ball Head, the Brotherhood Elite Sgt., you'd quite likely be immediately put off.
My recent mulling over what a new licensee of these games would need to do to become successful, I came across another reason that I believe removal of lower quality sculpts is necessary. As it currently stands, WZ and Chronopia each encompass catalogs of miniatures that dwarf nearly all of their rivals. While you might be able to convince a skeptical retailer that the games are now backed by a company that has the resources to produce a game that will keep customers coming back for new releases, you'll quickly run aground the second you show them the list of codes from which to order. Sure, you can offer suggestions as to what figures make good starters, but eventually, a retailer is going to want to carry as close to the full line as they can; they don't want to lost customers to competing stores simply because they chose to make Enhances Chasseurs a special order only figure.
Gutting the line and retaining only the newest (or best) sculpts would definitely ease a retailer's shock. Go ahead and keep molds for the old figures to provide for veteran gamers or those that want some "old school" character to their army, but by no means should they remain essential to the game.
As Wedge noted, not looking for a fight here, just some spirited discussion. And for those that made it through all of my rambling, congrats. :P
-
I guess this is an area where your friends and I differ, I think the rules are by a large margin the most important element to a game.
The problem is - Warzone is not the only game with good rules. Warmachine, Confrontation and some other games also have excellent rules, unfortunately, they have better minis too. A completely new gamer presented with a choice of two equally good rulesets will usually chose the one with nice looking minis, not one with minis looking like they were sculpted in early eighties. Most of people around here (Poland in this case) who play Warzone now have fond memories of 1st or 2nd edition, large collections of miniatures (usually at least a thousand or so...). All they really had to buy was the book and some of the newer minis - all the old, fugly miniatures were already on their shelves.
As for gutting the line, suggested by kman - this is one of the things the new license holder will have to do. He'll probably have to start with rules based on 2nd edition anyway (UWZ is EE's intellectual property, if I'm correct). This means, that a gutted product line will result in lower time to market (less units to playtest), easier start for new retailers... BTW - look, at what Rackham is doing (or GW for that matter) - they're gradually phasing out all their old products and replacing them with new sculpts. This both keeps the money flowing (everybody wants the new, nicer sculpts) and retailers happy (the product range is wide, but not too much - they can stock almost everything).
-
As Wedge noted, not looking for a fight here, just some spirited discussion. And for those that made it through all of my rambling, congrats. :P
I wholeheartedly agree to everything you said in your post.
-
Am I speaking for them? Perhaps a little Wedge. How many fans that were familiar names have long since left the game due to issues with EE? Even you have to admit that is true. I guess BEST may be something too debate. Best to me means that the rules are solid and the game has a marked presence in the marketplace. While UWZ may have acheived the 1st it sure never did the 2nd.
I'm not talking about having the old sculpts available. I mean as SEPERATE troop types. I haven't ever heard anyone saying that this was a really great idea. I believe it was done to make UWZ appear as if there were all sorts of new army unit choices available. It was a bad idea, period. Oh, I too like some of the OLD sculpts. But EE's decision wasn't a customer friendly one. It forced some players to buy figs that weren't comparable with current industry standards. Are you really supporting that decision?
EE DID keep the sculpts available. I would suggest that even without EE the secondary market was pretty flooded after Target's demise. i know i have actively been buying off Ebay for the last 4-5 years and found everything that I could want and more. I also believe that someone else may well have picked up the license. The game had simply been too popular for someone not to take a serious look at doing so. I could list EE's ongoing and constant issues. But, I believe most of us are quite aware of their shortcomings. Their utter failure to release any decent amount of new sculpts was pretty bad. Figs promised a year ago still haven't been released. Poor job anyway you look at it. The rules are an editing nightmare. They are also too large to readily carry around. I also am no fan of how the new lists were done. They seemed to be more about forcing past fans to buy new figs to field new armies instead of fielding ones they owned and buying NEW sculpts for those armies. Perhaps EE knew they wouldn't ever really be releasing the mass of new figs for WZ and decided this would be the way they sold figs. I don't know.
This is my opinion. But there are some facts on which it is based. Besides Wedge. it's pretty moot now. EE and WZ are soon to be a thing of the past and UWZ will probably not be part of any new WZ incarnation (if the game is to come back again) due to it being an EE property. Perhaps, 2nd will make a return. I think Kman made some excellent points, too.
Thanks,
John
I am also hoping that things turn out ok. I would humby suggest that a major faction of Warzone fans would debate the best incarnation ever statement.
Are you speaking for them? I am not trying to start a fight but where are you pulling this information from?
I think the core rules are quite good.
I agree.
But, their present presentatiion is not. The inclusion of OLD sculpts into the game as seperate troop types was a poor choice and will hopefully disappear.
This is debatable. Some people really liked some of the older sculpts. I know there are some that I prefer.
I would vigorously debate that EE 'RAISED' the bar in any meaningful way for Warzone. That may have been part of the issue. Who knows.............
As opposed to what? No Warzone or Chronopia at all? In my opinion that raises the bar from 0 to 100. Could the product have been much better? Sure, there is always room for improvement. But nothing is ever truly error free.
And for future note, I am only stating my opinions--not my opinions as facts or on behalf of anyone else.
-
johnl5555,
I sort of disagree with you on the recycling of old figs. The way I see it, EE is more on the consumer friendly side. In a way, it is trying to protect player's "investment". A very good example is Bauhaus's Hussar. Imagine if you have 3 squads of the old Hussars, had EE got rid of them, you would have to buy another 3 squads to replace them. Or you can simply use the old Hussar as it is. Granted, in a tournament, it probably wouldn't make any difference partly is because EE don't have a complete line (another topic).
For EE to survive, a new edition of rule is a way to generate cash flow. That along is not enough, IMHO. New sculpts will definitely help but what is the best way to entice player to buy new figs without antagonizing them at the same time? I think EE's solution may not be perfect but definitely helps.
-
Mchiao, I'm more than a bit confused about your Hussar example. I don't think anyone who has advocated that EE or a future licensee only make use of new sculpts has stated that old sculpts should no longer be allowed. Heck, even GW allows you to use old versions of new models in their sanctioned tournaments.
You're right, it's essential to make sure that a gamer's investment seems well worth it, even when the company is trying to sell them new models. But the maintenance of that perceived good investment is reliant not on the continued existence of particular sculpts, but of rules for the related troop types. There could be Hussar resculpts without end, but as long as the rules for that troop type exist, your investment in the original sculpts would not be lessened.
-
Kman,
All I'm saying is that EE did what they thought it was best for the both world. Let's think abou this for a moment. If EE didn't make the old Hussar into Pauldron Hussar, would you even think about buying the new Hussar? If you also think about who is actually playing the game then I dont blame EE a bit for what they did. Most of the players that still play Warzone probably got into since 1st edition if not 2nd edition. Most Bauhaus players probably have a squad or 2 of Hussars already. I can see some would buy the new Hussar but those are in the minority. Like you said, even GW allows old version in tournament. Why get the new one then? Why not save the money on the new stuff?
In the end, there is not much incentive for player to get the new sculpts. Unless there is a new unit. In Bauhaus Hussar's case, I think (in hind sight), EE should've made the new Hussar as the Pauldron and leave the old Hussar as it is.
BTW, I'm pretty much sure everyone knows this but the new Hussar isn't really new. It was available back in the Target era.
-
Mchiao,
You're right, you own the old Hussars. I own the old Hussars. Aside from being enticed by the newest toys (a strategy I might add, that has kept GW gamers rebuying their armies with each new incarnation for years) why would you or I buy a revised sculpt?
However, as is evidenced by the fact that nearly every WZ or Chronopia e-bay auction of late has been snapped up by a handful of people, very soon the number of gamers who own any WZ figures will dwindle to an even smaller amount than current. Thus, a revitalization of either franchise would bring in a flood of gamers whom the current licensee doesn't need to reassure as to the viability of their old figures.
And this completely ignores the fact that both of these games have now been out of the limelight for so long that it's not just a matter of veteran gamers who no longer have their armies - there's an entire generation of new gamers who have never even heard of WZ and Chronopia. It's these individuals that any new licensee needs to be targetting. And forcing such individuals to buy the less aesthetically pleasing sculpts - regardless as to whether that's a 1st or 2nd Ed. sculpt - is a bad idea.
Of course, it might never have been EE's intention to try and thrust either of these games back into their positions of prominence. There's obviously a fairly healthy, if small, community of grognards who are going to continue playing these games and a niche company could make some nice extra cash by providing them with occasional new toys.
However, I know that's not what I want, and doubt either EE or the rest of the WZ/Chronopia gaming community wanted that as well.
(As an aside, I realize that my direct response to you might seem a bit aggressive mchiao. No offense is intended if I in fact offended.)
-
........grognards........
Forgive my ignorance but just what is a grognard?
-
Grognard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grognard)
Seems there are quite a few different definitions of it.
-
(As an aside, I realize that my direct response to you might seem a bit aggressive mchiao. No offense is intended if I in fact offended.)
Kman,
None taken. After all, we all have something in common, our passion towards WZ/Chronopia. And of course, our frustration derived from that passion.
All I can say is, if I get the chance to do this all over again, I would just say no. But that is another story.
-
Do what all over again?
-
Getting into Warzone/Chronopia...
The figs... you know...
-
By getting in, do you mean buying or getting into discussion?
Sorry, just trying to understand what you mean.
-
Getting into the game.
It started one Firstborn then cross over to Warzone... Then Devout/Swampie/SOK/Elves... then most of Corporations... then Blackblood/Dwarves... then Dark Legions...
-
Gotcha.
-
Not to mention the paint I bought...
Thank god I came to my sense before getting a air paint brush...
-
"The minis that got released were better than any of the Heartbreaker or Target sculpts that preceded them"
you are joking right? You mean to tell me that you think the new shadowwalkers and fat man golden lion are better sculpts then all of the stuff that Kev White did for second edition?
I HATED the fact that they made the older models new troop types. I hated the old sculpts and sold all of mine when the newer nicer resculpts were released. To have to go back and buy back the old ugly out of scale models again was retarded and is one of the reasons I left the game after being such a rabid fan. They could have still sold the old minis and allowed them to be used in tournaments (either old or new sculpt) to not alienate those who had the older model but forcing those of us who care about the aesthetics and want our minis to be in scale with each other alienates us. To me the line about being nice to older gamers with making you use the old models is BS (i am older gamer btw, played since day 1 of 1rst edition). To me it was EE being greedy, wanting to make money on the models without having to put out any money for sculpts.
The final nail in the coffin for me was the lack of any releases and when something was released it was the the lower quality of 1rst edition models instead of good quality of 2nd edition models. This told me there would never be any models I would want to buy again.
I hope another company takes a stab at it. If they do it right I will get back in and rebuy all the models I have sold. (every army)
-
I agree fully Madzerker. And yeah, I happy with all those figs I got from you! ;D
Thanks,
John
-
Let's not pick up where the License thread ended.
Remember-unless you are playing in a tournament, you can use whatever figs you want. Who gives a rodent's buttocks what came out when and which is better. You think I ditched four squads of old heavy infantry just because they aren't the new official HI? Heck no. If I want four freaking squads of HI they are fitting the bill.
-
Well those of you who feared it would be a collectable mini game, here is your nightmare (http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/rants.html).
Looks like all new minis too as they claim they're 36mm and I assume they'll be of the same grade of plastic as the minis that come in the Doom boxed set as well as the other FFG materials. I guess if they intended it to be a CMG, the new minis wouldn't be worth anything thing if everyone just used their old pewter minis for proxies.
Well I for one, don't intend to trade up my collection for these. I might be interested in some DL monsters or other large models that may fit with my 28mm stuff. But I won't be paying any collector prices for them nor do I find any prepainting of any value worth paying for. If the rules are decent I'll probably play the game, but use as much of my Warzone collection. However don't think it's quite the scope of Warzone and thus no substitute for it.
I intend to keep playing Ultimate Warzone, as I love the game and love the minis. I had already given up on waiting for new minis a long time ago and have been collecting materials for making my own custom models as well as come up with other models that would replace the fugly ones.
-
I'm not going to condemn the game until I see what they're doing with it. Remember, the first SotC was all plastics and goofy sizes.
That said, don't worry, I'll be behind UWZ as long as ya'll are still playin it. (I'll see where I can help with that too)
-PFC joe