What do you think, are vehicles to good?
I think vehicles are to good. The Mounted HMG's are by far the best weapons in UWZ.
They nearly have the range of a Sniper, but the damage of a HMG in shorter distances.
The are hard to kill. The bonus to hit a large target is not big enough. The Rocket Launchers
have to bad range modifiers, so you often miss with the rockets. They should be able to track on vehicles to hit them better.
Especially the single crewed vehicles are to good. +3 RC when they are standing. Why?
They should get no bonus when they are standing (as any other model) and should get a
penalty if they are moving and shooting in one action, because that is difficult to hand.
Multicrewed vehicles are more realistic with their rules. Moving and shooting in one action is a very big advantage.
All vehicles shoot get big penalties if they are doing this.
Have you ever tried to take out even a single Orca, Battlewalker or Great Grey played smartly? Just put some meatshield in front of them, find a nice hiding place for the vehicle, pop out, shoot, shoot while standing, hide again. Tac Sense - useless ('cause you do not see the vehicle, when you're able to use it). Wait - useless (the meatshield...)... If the vehicle owner is smart, those buggers are practically immortal.
On the issue of gunners being less accurate than single pilot vehicles, try standing (or even sitting) in a moving vehicle as a passenger and shooting stop signs. It's not the easiest thing in the world. Now imagine sitting in the drivers seat and using a built in Aiming device, that is by extension the entire vehicle, and just driving at what you want to shoot. It's a little easier as the driver because you know which way you're moving next and aren't having to react to unannounced violent bumps and dips inaddition to drawing a bead on your target.
From the way it sounds you've lost every match the moment a Vehicle card is activated.Nope I have quite an average tourney record - vehicles or not. Each tourney is 1 win, 1 lose, 1 draw.
It doesn't take a whole army on wait, at most it takes a squad if done properly.The dice must love you. 8 to 12 guys to put a single wound on it is a minimum, statistically speaking. If the GG is hunting this particular squad, 4-5 of those guys will die...
So what if only one or two hit, it takes the initive away from his tactics, he is revealed to be vulnerable in that respectNot exactly. This forces YOU to put a superior (in PC terms) force on wait in order to just deter a single model from doing harm to them. It is going to strike elsewhere. Seems that it is YOU, not the vehicle owner that loses the initiative - you're reacting to a threat with a much superior force.
My goodness, you make it sound as if he's at fault for making mincemeat out of exposed units.Erm... are you playing this game at all sometimes? You advocate lots of terrain (I do too, but for different reasons). This increases the strength of the vehicles - putting the most forward units in smoke and hard cover is not gonna to help much - the vehicle will use terrain to get a fire lane that allows it to shoot at an unprotected unit, and it can shoot without losing movement actions. Infantry OTOH needs to move more to find targets. With the mobility of an average vehicle, there's always some kind of exposed unit.
Is dick dancing a cheap tactic when used by any unit? yesUnfortunately, it is a legal tactic. If it is the only smart element in the way somebody plays, well... he can be beaten, easily, if with great loses. If he is a good player and uses this "cheap tactic"... you're in for a world of hurt.
just outta curiosity, how are the Polish tourny's set up? 1200 points is a good sized game regardless of where it's being played1200 points, more or less half of the table-tennis table size as the battlefield, some restrictions (e.g. up to 2 support choices or repeated elite units - to avoid armies like 15 Praetorians and 20 Necromutants). Varied terrain - both environmental level and table setup.
What do you think, are vehicles to good?
I think vehicles add an interesting dynamic to the game. As a Bauhaus player, Ive seen the strike skimmer used to devestating effectiveness. Ive seen Cybers EDD singlehandedly control and win a game. Theres nothing like the feeling of being pinned down in a corner cowering at the sight of a great grey.I think vehicles are to good. The Mounted HMG's are by far the best weapons in UWZ.
They nearly have the range of a Sniper, but the damage of a HMG in shorter distances.
The are hard to kill. The bonus to hit a large target is not big enough. The Rocket Launchers
have to bad range modifiers, so you often miss with the rockets. They should be able to track on vehicles to hit them better.
Vehicles ARE deadly when used properly. A Mounted HMG will rip your force to shreds if you let it. Most MHMGs are only good to medium range <which puts them into effective range of just about every AR in the game>. Rockets arent the only way to kill a vehicle. I have tasked a whole squade to the sole purpose of taking an EDD out, quickly. I have also used a Strike Skimmer as a decoy to draw fire. That being said, template weapons are more of a pain to me than a vehicle <especially when a certain Cyber player has tons of them and never seems to miss, right jjdodger ;D> As far as tracking on a vehicle that might not be a bad idea seeing as they are larger< im not real sure how it could be done> but I think thats what AIM can be used for if im not mistakeEspecially the single crewed vehicles are to good. +3 RC when they are standing. Why?
They should get no bonus when they are standing (as any other model) and should get a
penalty if they are moving and shooting in one action, because that is difficult to hand.
Multicrewed vehicles are more realistic with their rules. Moving and shooting in one action is a very big advantage.
All vehicles shoot get big penalties if they are doing this.
First let me start off with my feelings on Multi-crewed vehicles. I think the way MCs are designed is very effective and realistic. <having been in the back of a deuce or a bradley trying to fire accurately while its moving I can attest to that>
Now single crewed are a different story all together. THEY ARE A PAIN!!!! :D Having been on the wrong end of a EDD doing a richard dance< because I stupidly left my forces with no cover, none on wait and clustered together :o> I can feel the dislike of the +3 when not moving. I agree that they maybe should get a small penalty <-1 maybe> when moving and shooting in the same action because as we have all found out, its not easy to do many things well at once < driving while drinking coffee with a smoke in your mouth and talking on a cell :P> I think the +3 is a bit much for not moving to shoot. A +2 might make it not quite as deadly but still take into effect that it is a vehicle that is losing its greatest attribute<mobility> to fire at your sorry cowering arse ;D But with all that said Ive hated the +3 for a vehicle when playing against it, have loved it when using it to my advantage and actually like the strategy that it needs to be taken out without heavy losses.
Thats just my two cents and I hope I was able to state it without offending anyone as that was not my intention
Philly
Don't worry, I am extremely thick skinned - the only person in history that managed to annoy me had to work really hard to do this ;-) .
back on topic
As for my experiences so far - dense terrain in fact favors vehicles over infantry. Vehicles do not lose chance to fire if they have to relocate (and moving in order to find new targets is more common in dense terrain - on a clear table it is possible not to move some units at all) AND less models have LOS to them - as vehicles are generally tougher than infantry, this works in their favor (lower risk of getting hurt). The vehicle may simply chose who it fights. The denser terrain, the easier it is.
On a clear table infantry has better chance - with proper application of Tactical Sense it is possible to take out vehicles with assault rifles. In dense terrain very often you will not have LOS to the vehicle, and troops which DO have LOS to, say, Battlewalker, Orca or a Great Grey tend to die very quickly for some reason (lead poisoning usually).NOT MY WORDS - ;)
Some situations may work in favor of infantry - 12" LOS limitation may spell doom on lighter vehicles, if the enemy has a lot of SMGs/HMGs or anything else with high ROF on wait - but only if the vehicle decides to take the chance and meet such unit head-on. In other cases it may also work in favor of the vehicle - a technique similar to "shoot&hide" (or "dick dancing" you called it ;-) )
may be used, only it is not necessary to seek cover, but only retreat beyond LOS (with a supporting infantry unit lying few inches back on wait or ambush it may be very devastating).
Really? I find the opposite to be true. I find that it restricts vehicular movement as most vehicles can't turn more than 90° once per AC.Walkers - 180, skimmer - 360... there are a lot of walkers and skimmers in this game. True, wheeled vehicles have only 90 degrees turns, but they're usually open vehicles, so there's no problems with drive-by shooting. You don't have to be able to ride in circles to utilize terrain.
Yes, the vehicle does have more options, hence it's PC.A vehicle costs roughly 10-11 points more than comparable (in terms of weapons, SAs, RC, wounds, armor etc) infantry unit (autocannon-armed meka vs Viktor). That's not much at that PC-cost level, especially if you consider such bonuses like "standing-still bonus" or that "fire-on-the-move" thing... Hell... i'd gladly pay 11 (even 15) points to upgrade some of my Dark Legion troops to get those options (even if I had to restrict them to 1 turn per action....)
Even if the turning radius is 360º, they are still only allowed one turn per AC, unlike troops (which allowed to turn as many times as they like in a given AC).Yep. But vehicles also have options unavailable to soldiers. While a soldier has to maneuver around a 1.5 inch wall, an Orca may step over it (even though the model is no taller than the wall). A Great Grey may simply fly over it, with no need to worry about terrain... Not what I'd call reduced maneuverability. And in anything but a really messy terrain, 1 turn per action is enough, if you plan your actions well.
I hope people don't think I'm beating a dead horse, but I happened on the discussion a little late. I've read that all vehicles get +3RC for standing still due to the stablility of the firing platform.
How does this relate/compare to MMG teams and other associated armament? It seems that MHMG like the HMG-85T or the Schwerwaffe are built to provide a stable firing platform for a MMG (an thats about it.)
Are these weapons that much less stable than one mounted on a Great Grey or Battlewalker, both of which are built as much for movement as for shooting?
Do you all think that the points difference between the Necromower at 54pt and the ducal militia HMG team at 43pt is enough to take into account the increased survivability/mobility/accuracy of the Necromower?
Don't know how I feel about it all, but would like to hear some opinions. Based on the army lists I have seen posted people only take associated armament when a vehicle mounted weapon is unavailable.
Keep in mind that the associated armament has some advantages that a vehicle would not. Mostly in the form of being able to better utilize cover. However, I think that most players would prefer to have the mobility.does the HMG-85T provide cover to the gunner behind it?
Keep in mind that the associated armament has some advantages that a vehicle would not. Mostly in the form of being able to better utilize cover. However, I think that most players would prefer to have the mobility.does the HMG-85T provide cover to the gunner behind it?
For all who think, that vehicles are to good.
Last game we changed a rule.
Vehicles get no +3 to RC when standing.
They get -3RC when they are moving and shooting in one action.
For us this seemes to be fair and it worked well.
So vehicles are still good and have many tactical options, but
are not the superior killing machine.
Because other models do not move and shot in ONE action.
And in our group we all think, that vehicles are to good.
Have you ever played against 4x Battlewalker in 1000 Pts Force?
actually, i've played against 4X walkers and six snipers (two squads of two snipers and two more snipers in the grunts). i won. while it was a cheesy force it was perfectly beatable.
-pFC joe
Actually, the Mish player has fielded that force several times. (with Ameratsu included) I have yet to lose to it. I find it challenging yes, but the use of fairly simple tactics (don't get shot, don't stand where you can get shot) anda little luck always win out.
-PFC joe