Bauhaus, efficiency and morale

[PhillySniper]

If you ever get to the states drop me a line and bring the Vulcan army of doom european version. Ill bring the apple pie along with the butt whoopin im gonna hand ya

   come get some!


I am quite happy that it is beatable! I just wondered if it is / how hard.


as the 1000P limit: isn“t that a little few? I considered armys of 2 grunts, 2 elite + extras(chars,supp) as a start. thats easy 1200-1500 P.
a game with less then 6 units/side seems a little ... small..!?

especially if you consider that for example any elite unit can wipe out a suad in 1 turn (3 jaeger HMG, RC 11 ...)

ok, I don“t know the mechanisms in game yet, but since a normal squad has morale max 12, with even chars topping at 14 there will be a lot of broken squads, not? therefore, a squad can take only few punishment before wiped out/routed. everything less than 6 units seems to few, as you have very few redundant units that can allow you to act/use tactics.

in WHFB, for exampe, you need at least as many distraction units as fighting units..

hmm...

Ill answer these points in order.

1. 1000pts is a nice size because there are sooo many different combinations. It forces you to chose what you want and what you hope to achieve. You can have alot more than 4 squads in a 1000pts if you arent trying to max out your squads. In UWZ activations < number of units per turn> can be as important as squad size. For example.. using Capitol I can get 34 units on the board with flexibility and firepower for 1000pts. Theyll have protection from the enviornment, close combat ability and long range firepower.

2. Terrain Terrain Terrain. Use of terrain to protect your squads while they get in position is vital. Also just the fact that elites can carry firepower doesnt mean that grunts doenst stand a chance. remember you can get more grunts in a squad than elites for less money. Example: A full squad of Heavy Infantry 12 troops 1 Sgt 1 HMG 1 Rocket launcher and 1 medic cost 342pts. A full squad of Sunset Strikers 8 troops 1 Sgt 2 Flame throwers and 1 Light Machine gun 371 pts. So it comes down to 15 Vs 12 and grunts NEVER fight alone Plus just because they have the firepower doesnt mean they always hit!!! Right Jibba?!?!?

3.Depending on force composition you can have many more than 6 units in force. Example I can get 4 squads of Freedom Brigade 20 troopers for 332pts. 3 squads of desert scorpions 15 troops for 362pts. 1 Great Grey for 65 Pts and 3 Orcas for 194pts Plus one Infantry Col for about 1000pts. 10 Activations and some serious firepower and tactical problems for your opponent.


Id say just give it a try. Vary your forces. This game is alot of fun and 1000pts can lead to some very interesting battles.

[Gallagher_Standard_Barer]

as the 1000P limit: isn“t that a little few? I considered armys of 2 grunts, 2 elite + extras(chars,supp) as a start. thats easy 1200-1500 P.
a game with less then 6 units/side seems a little ... small..!?

Not at all.  The biggest game I've ever played was 1200 and I found that a bit too big.  I pretty regularly play 750-1000 point games, and on occasion I enjoy playing 350 point skirmishes, where  I still get in a grunt unit, an elite unit and an individual.  Because activations alternate in UWZ, meaning I move one unit then you move one unit, the number of activations in your force is another important strategic consideration, which often means few big squads are less dangerous then more smaller ones, but of course that means more risk of panic checks, so its a balancing act.

especially if you consider that for example any elite unit can wipe out a suad in 1 turn (3 jaeger HMG, RC 11 ...)

  Not really, there are several mitigating factors (Terrain, Cover, Range Penalties, Minimize Presence, etc.)  and even still RC 11 is still only a 55% chance to hit before modifiers, then after the hit is detirmined you still get armor rolls.  Given that grunt squads must be at least as large as if not bigger that your elite squads it is unlikely that you would ever be able to wipe out the whole squad in a single activation.

ok, I don“t know the mechanisms in game yet, but since a normal squad has morale max 12, with even chars topping at 14 there will be a lot of broken squads, not? therefore, a squad can take only few punishment before wiped out/routed. everything less than 6 units seems to few, as you have very few redundant units that can allow you to act/use tactics.

  Since you don't have a good grasp on the mechanics it can be hard to understand how this works and therefore make accurate moral judgments.  A unit only tests for morale when it has take 50% casualties or more, so yes in that regard bigger squads do delay when you will have to make panic tests, but first of all panic isn't that big a deal in UWZ, a couple of penalties that can be allievated by being rallied by a squad leader or individual.  Furthermore unlike in certain other games there is no morale condition in UWZ that causes your units to immediately be removed from the table, therefore even though whats left of a squad may be broken it can still be rallied by a strong leader.  One of the primary role of individuals in UWZ is to provide a stable morale basis for your army with their higher leaderships for rallying and their ability to join units to increase thier resistance to panic.

in WHFB, for exampe, you need at least as many distraction units as fighting units..

hmm...

Lesson number 1: This isn't WHFB, or WH40k, its most certianly different and in my opinion entirely better.

This should become clear after a few games but in UWZ there isn't really such a thing as a junk unit (Possible exceptions being Freedom Brigade and ICS Grendarmes) everything from the lowest grunt to the best support option needs to play an important role in your strategy (and no bullet catcher isn't really an important role).

[PFC joe]

take everything you learned from 40K and FB and throw it away.  It's useless.

Other than a few poor weapons layout choices (the Vulkans) there are no "Hero" units like you would find in the GW games.  No undying Chaos Lords with +10 Swords of Skull Throwing laying waste to everything  in their path.  No cannon fodder units.  The crappiest zombie shouting blindly into the air can still bring down the strongest human (who at most have three wounds).  If you're taking units and using them as fodder, then your opponent has you beat before you begin.

The points costs balance out to where a unit of X amount of points will generally kill about X amount of points.  This is of course depending on the unit being in it's optimal range, ie Medium Range for Capitol Rangers and PB/CC for Bauhaus Etoiles Mortants.

Of course certain SA's tip the points one way or the other.  The Capitol Infantry Colonel, for instance, is worth every point of his 45 pts even though he won't kill a thing durin the whole game.  His 16 Leadership (18 for initiative) can rally the most worthless squad and his Command Radius is HUGE!

1000 points will get you roughly 4~6 units with some decent support/officer options mixed in.  Usually around 30~35 figures.    Unless you play Ilian where it's possible to field seven nine man squads (eight children + one scion) and a decked out Nepharite for 64 units in 999 points.  (that is a terrifying army to face) (you can do similar things with Dogs and Great Greys)

1250~1500 point games will get you access to fire missions without havin to take minimal squads.  These games usually range between 35 and 50 figures with a greater degree of tactical variation


As for the freedom Brigadeers, attach Maria del Tores to a full squad of them and they can take casualties all day long and no one will notice.  Figure in the sheer volume of fire (48 actions for a full squad) and they'll have to hit something eventually.  Though to be fair, the only reason I'd take them over LI is that the FB SGT has access to a UBGL.

-PFC joe

[Jibbajabbawocky]

Freedom Brigades aren't too bad, but it's one of those situations where your getting what you pay for; Cheap, vaguely useful infantry.

the 4 MV is good for getting them into position, and they all still have M-50s, so they're still a credible thread.

[MadBrad]

I also vote for smaller games.  I have found that UWZ does not scale well. Two major problems.

 1. At most tournaments, you will see that all players take minimum squad size grunt units to min/max the number of elites. 

2. When one side has several more units than the other, you often see the side with more units activate units at the periphery of the battle, to force activation of the less numerous oponent.   It is had to describe in words, but I could show you, if you just fly to Denver!   

UWZ was designed as a skirmins level game, best played with 2 or 3 units and a commander or support unit.  More is not always more better....



 

[PFC joe]

1.  Then you're playin at the wrong tournys.  The Elite squads can't be any larger than the Grunt squad used to purchase them.  p36

2.  out activation is where you activate your smaller squads/individuals in an effort to bring numericaly/attributaly/SAaly superior weapons against a target without fear of repercusion as they can't activate any more units.

UWZ works just fine up until around the 2k~2.5k level.  and then it just becomes tedious movin all those units around  (that's a lotta actions to burn through in a game turn

-PFC joe

[MadBrad]

PFC Joe,

To respond to your excellent points:

1.  If I buy a min size children of Illian squad to qualify the purchase of the max size Brass Apocalypt squad, then I am legally min/maxing. Even if the number of elites does not  outnumber the grunts, you can get some combinations that give you more power on the Elite end of the spectrum.

2. Out Activating, as you describe, perfectly illustrates why a large disparity of # of units works heavily in favors of the army with more units to activate.   If I have 10 units to your five, I can force you to activate units in a hotly contested area, thus allowing you minimal chance to react when I later activate my own units in the "hot zone".   Not sure if you were agreeing or disagreeing with me, here.  However, the way that activation works, he who has more units has a an advantage.  When you combine with min/maxing, it serves to reinforce the validity of the first point I am making.

If you dig deep enough in the forums, I remember a couple of threads where people laid out their "best 500" point force, or something similar.  In every case, the armies consisted of min sized grunt units, largest legal # of elites w/specialists and usually a big fugly of some sort. 

I agree that UWZ does bog down with too many units.  You and I will probably end up disagreeing on where that point occurs. 

BTW, I'm hope I'm not coming across as being combative on this, but I do think the points I make are valid.  Feel free to debate my logic.   

MadBrad

[PFC joe]

1 -scratches head-

i guess you could call that min/maxing.  though if you're purchasing a Grunt squad solely to provide for an Elite squad then (in this case, if you don't use the children tacticaly) you're effectively doubling the cost of the elite squad.  I'd hardly consider  a 131 point squad payin for 128 points of another squad min-maxing.  (of course, 132 points will get you a nifty Templar Squad)
 
The way most of the Dark Legion forces are laid out, there is one Elite squad with a max of four members.  Since there are no grunt squads with less than four members, it'd be a little difficult to approach that claim.

While you're techncially right, it's almost moot in that you get two relatively similiarly effective squads for abotu what you pay for them.

I'd be a little more inclined to agree with you if you'd mentioned Capitol Dog teams providing the nessecary Grunts required to purchase multiple Great Greys.  Tacticaly, that force is unsound as the majority of it can't actually fight until it's crossed a lot of ground while the damage dealing component will draw all the fire that the opponent can bring to bear on it.


I'm just used to 2cd ed Min/Maxing where a five man Light Infantry squad was all that was required to get a nine man AssMar squad of death.

2 as for Out activating someone, it's a gamble.  You have to press your advantage from the beginning and hope to heaven that your reduced sized squads can inflict enough damage on opposing fuller sized squads as in a war of attrition, a squad with two men left after casualities is almost insignifigant when facing five to seven men remainin in an enemy squad.  To pull it off, you need smallish sized squads and as many officers as you can take.  That way you can control Morale issues as well as add additional support to ailing squads.



Game size is really up to the particular group.  My group can blow through a 750~1000 point match in forty five minutes and with nearly 100% casualties (it doesn't pay to be a trooper in our armies) in less than two turns.  we usually play 1k as it offers a decent tactical selection and you don't have to scrimp and trim points to get that shiney new Jimmy-Dean Pork Sausage Repeater Rifle that yer Grunt squad desperatly needs.

-PFC joe

(don't worry, no bent feelers here)

[masherking]

I just wanted to add something I seen from the games I played.
Taking an elite heavy army might seem like the more powerful army, but I've found grunt heavy armies to more powerful.
For the most part grunts will win the game for you

  And with very execptions this game is kinda hard to mini max. Your always paying a price to cram as many "big guns" as you can. Either in points and/or in the amount of models on the table that can effectively return fire.

And more directly related to subject, I usually play games of 500 up to 1000 points (1000 pts being common)
Though I would love to play a good 2000pt game once in a blue moon (for a nice big battle). 
I would agree anything more then 2500 would start to become a lot work ( unless you commited a whole day to play 1 game  ). 

I also vote for smaller games. I have found that UWZ does not scale well.

The game plays well from 500pts to up 2500 I think this makes the game  scale very well

my 2 cents.

[Jibbajabbawocky]

I, for one, like to focus on Grunt choices ahead of Elites.  Sure, some elites are the bomb-diggety when it comes to certain situations, (CC, Channeling, lots of shooty doom), Grunts will give you a decided advantage in that you're gonna have alot of feet on the ground, each of which (in most Corp armies, Wolf Pack nonewithstadning) has an assault rifle.)  The ability to lay down fire to 36', while moving 4 inches (in the case of Light Infantry equivilants) is pretty powerful.  That, and I can have a Capitol Heavy Infantry army with things like Snipers and RL specialists, and give my squads tactical flexibility (Anti-Armor, anti Special Character, etc.)  I'd much rather duke it out with a smallish squad of Elites then a full squad of grunts out in the open. (Doubly so for Grunts with SMGs... nasty nasty things, those.  Imperial IDC Gendairmes for example.  SMGs, with specialists with HMGs.  I doubt many Elites can stand up to that when they get within 6-12')

Elites are mostly good for certain situations.  Have a tavle with Environmental effects?  Take Sea Lions and ACG.  Fighting in close confines?   Sunset Strikers or Assault Marines are good for that, and so are Free Marines.  Need to take/blow up an objective?  Rangers lead the way, literally.

So really, you want Grunts to deal damage and soak up casualties, Elites to win objectives/optimize your force for a certain situation, and support choices to lay the smackdown.

[PhillySniper]

Ok here's my thoughts.

1. I prefer the 1000 - 1500pt range for battles. It gives you time to move and re-act and have different force combos. Its not too long to play..usually 2-2 1/2 hours and its great for scenarios.

2.Min/Max can be done in some instances i.e Ducal Militia to get Vulcans. But there arent alot of instances where its worthwhile to do so. On a properly terrained board, tactics can and often times will overcome superior firepower. Tho in a 500pt game youll see people try to get elites because its a fast moving game and their armor tends to be better< tho if I had the figs I wouldnt mind fielding a whole Ducal or Dragoon army with ablative armor and lazer sights with sniper specialist!!!!!>. When you make contact ina  game that small you tend to want to maximize your troops surviveability. WHne you get into a higher point game you need the heavier firepower to deal with the multi-wound, high armor models that come into play but the grunts play their part as well i.e meat shield, move and fire to harrass multi wound models, fast movers for objectives, protecting your rear from para deployers etc

3. Out activating someone can be a real PIA. I played Masher in a  tourney game and he had me out activated by 4 or five units per turn for the first few turns. It allowed him to basically walk his Beheamoth across the board in cover and there wasnt much I could do other than try to use wait and then pray I won initiative. I eventually killed him but not till after he severely hurt my orcas and had my sunset strikers cowering in cover
Having extra activations gives you more tactics to use and can slow your opponents advance as he has to protect against your forces that can move at will after you are done.

I wish there was a way to set up timely PBEM games. That way we could all play against each other and find out how effective our tactics are against each other.

I love this forum. Its obvious that UWZ is played by intelligent game lovers. The discussions are invigorating and informative!!!

Masher if we can set it up Id love to play that 2000pt battle <Lots of Scorpions and mirrormen!!!!>

[masherking]

Let me know when your free
I be glad to knock the shine off your mirriormen 

and I total agree with your points about the people on this forum.

[Jibbajabbawocky]

I guess my awesomeness is starting to rub off on others. 


 

[PhillySniper]

I guess my awesomeness is starting to rub off on others. 


 

Isnt it more like  wiped?

Off the table that is

Sunset Strikers CHARGE!!!!!!!!!

[Jibbajabbawocky]

Oww... my ego.