Author Topic: WAIT and vehicle +3 bonus  (Read 23700 times)

Offline Stalker

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Re: WAIT and vehicle +3 bonus
« Reply #45 on: June 14, 2007, 02:04:27 AM »
@ Dave - No offense, we're all good.  I just wanted to make sure of it.  You know better safe than...

Just my 2 cents. remembering that both sides are actually going at the sametime if the skimmer moves all 3 actions then no +3 bonus when he comes off wait to shoot as the vehicle is still moving until it activates and uses its first action to not move and shoot. ;D

YES, YES, YES!  This is the point that I tried to make in a post many months ago.  Thank you Dragon.
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Offline Dr. Nick

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Re: WAIT and vehicle +3 bonus
« Reply #46 on: June 14, 2007, 02:26:10 AM »
but this is not consistent..

you assume the saved actions bear some "memory" of the time when they where taken.

now what if the SK only moves 2 and stops for the 3. action (assuming gunner shot 1th and then ambushed)?

-> does the first of the ambush actions does not get the bonus, but the second does?
(was taken during standing)

=> i think, if the action ends, the moving status also ends.
this is a quirk/realism-bends-to-AC-mechanism of the system, but nevertheless the case.

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Offline PhillySniper

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Re: WAIT and vehicle +3 bonus
« Reply #47 on: June 14, 2007, 05:25:34 AM »
Just my 2 cents. remembering that both sides are actually going at the sametime if the skimmer moves all 3 actions then no +3 bonus when he comes off wait to shoot as the vehicle is still moving until it activates and uses its first action to not move and shoot. ;D

I actually have to disagree with that.
If both sides were "acting" at the same time, models that were killed would still get an activation before being removed from the board at the end of the turn.

IMO, if you use ambush after another unit has activated < which is most of the time> You SHOULD get the +3 to shoot.
Ex. A Skimmer moves 3 times to a position behind cover. The commando reserves 2 actions.  The next unit activates. The enemy comes around a corner, reveals itself etc, the commando then comes off of wait to shoot twice. IMO he would get the +3 bonus because it was the skimmers intention to STOP behind cover.

I think we have to think this through a bit. If you try to say that the reserved actions are taking place during the movement of the skimmer, then the shot, no matter when/where actually used, would have to come from where the skimmer was when the action was reserved. I dont think that anyone here thinks that is the case.

What Im trying to say is that if the commando shoots during the actual turn of the skimmer <unless the skimmer didnt move, then we have no point>, then no +3. If it is after another unit moves, then they would get the +3.
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Offline dmcgee1

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Re: WAIT and vehicle +3 bonus
« Reply #48 on: June 14, 2007, 01:43:38 PM »
Quote from: NoTrollNick link=topic=818.msg24368#msg24368 date=
but this is not consistent..

you assume the saved actions bear some "memory" of the time when they where taken.

now what if the SK only moves 2 and stops for the 3. action (assuming gunner shot 1th and then ambushed)?

-> does the first of the ambush actions does not get the bonus, but the second does?
(was taken during standing)

=> i think, if the action ends, the moving status also ends.
this is a quirk/realism-bends-to-AC-mechanism of the system, but nevertheless the case.



Nice example, Nick - I cannot find fault with it.
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline dmcgee1

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Re: WAIT and vehicle +3 bonus
« Reply #49 on: June 14, 2007, 01:46:39 PM »
Quote from: PhillySniper link=topic=818.msg24373#msg24373 date=
Quote from: Dragon62 link=topic=818.msg24338#msg24338 date=
Just my 2 cents. remembering that both sides are actually going at the sametime if the skimmer moves all 3 actions then no +3 bonus when he comes off wait to shoot as the vehicle is still moving until it activates and uses its first action to not move and shoot. ;D

I actually have to disagree with that.
If both sides were "acting" at the same time, models that were killed would still get an activation before being removed from the board at the end of the turn.

IMO, if you use ambush after another unit has activated < which is most of the time> You SHOULD get the +3 to shoot.
Ex. A Skimmer moves 3 times to a position behind cover. The commando reserves 2 actions.  The next unit activates. The enemy comes around a corner, reveals itself etc, the commando then comes off of wait to shoot twice. IMO he would get the +3 bonus because it was the skimmers intention to STOP behind cover.

I think we have to think this through a bit. If you try to say that the reserved actions are taking place during the movement of the skimmer, then the shot, no matter when/where actually used, would have to come from where the skimmer was when the action was reserved. I dont think that anyone here thinks that is the case.

What Im trying to say is that if the commando shoots during the actual turn of the skimmer <unless the skimmer didnt move, then we have no point>, then no +3. If it is after another unit moves, then they would get the +3.

Again, Philly raises valid points, not the least of which is the unmentioned "game mechanic."  Sometimes, something is the way that it is because it is easiest for the game to be that way - it is, afterall, a game.  It is an approximation and simulation of "real world," but, in the end, a game that needs rules and consistency to remain viable and playable.
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline drnovice

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Re: WAIT and vehicle +3 bonus
« Reply #50 on: June 14, 2007, 02:42:02 PM »
By me, +3 RC depens on the fact that vehicle is stationary, not gunner is stationary.
So going to consider when gunner has taken the ambush action doesn't have sense (while he was taking the ambush action if the vehicle was moving or not we don't care, when he shoots, it is stationary and not in movement!)
« Last Edit: June 14, 2007, 02:45:05 PM by drnovice »

Offline Dr. Nick

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Re: WAIT and vehicle +3 bonus
« Reply #51 on: June 14, 2007, 11:09:03 PM »
yes, but the question essentially is, does a vehicle continue to move after itīs activation..

if it would remain in "move-status" there would be no question whether the +3 or not..


since there is no move-status in the game (or rather, the status only applies during actual moving),

we need to assume a stopping after every action (that is similar to GW style flying, landing every turn..)


=> imho, the +3 bonus applies, of course.. (raising it to a shocking +5/6 with the fat guns  ;D)

(for a more detailed view of my view upon vehicles & +3 Bonus see here:
http://forum54.oli.us/index.php?topic=157.msg24440#msg24440)
« Last Edit: June 15, 2007, 09:52:41 AM by NoTrollNick »
"Donīt anticipate outcome. Await the unfolding of events. Remain in the moment."

Offline drnovice

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Re: WAIT and vehicle +3 bonus
« Reply #52 on: June 14, 2007, 11:16:05 PM »
yes, but the question essentially is, does a vehicle continue to move after itīs activation..

if it would remain in "move-status" there would be no question whether the +3 or not..


since there is no move-status in the game (or rather, the status only applies during actual moving),

we need to assume a stopping after every action (that is similar to GW style flying, landing every turn..)


=> imho, the +3 bonus applies, of course.. (raising it to a shocking +5/6 with the fat guns  ;D)

(for a more detailed view of my why-imho see here:
http://forum54.oli.us/index.php?topic=157.msg24440#msg24440)
Gunner don't move, only pilot can use his action to move. So when pilot actions are ended, vehicle is stationary.
And if it is stationary, when gunner out of wait he has +3 RC.

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Re: WAIT and vehicle +3 bonus
« Reply #53 on: June 15, 2007, 08:52:22 AM »
Hence, I have a problem with 6 shots at a modified 13 RC.  It's a little powerful for my taste.  You're going to hit at least 4 times (average) and kill 3 (with average armor) every time.

We can go round and round about this as much as we like.  Until I hear from Thom that this WAS his intention then I would house rule it that it does not get the bonus if it moved at all during the action(s) that is reserved the gunners actions for ambush.  With the lessened RC you still looking at 3 hits and 2 kills, so we're only saving one model on average.   ::)

Offline drnovice

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Re: WAIT and vehicle +3 bonus
« Reply #54 on: June 15, 2007, 10:39:47 AM »
Hence, I have a problem with 6 shots at a modified 13 RC.  It's a little powerful for my taste.  You're going to hit at least 4 times (average) and kill 3 (with average armor) every time.
Evidently your taste is quite hard... ;D
I'm talking about the fact that the weapon of vehicle stationary (used by the gunner) better shoots that when such vehicle is in movement... it's a simply logical thought don't you find?

Quote
We can go round and round about this as much as we like.  Until I hear from Thom that this WAS his intention then I would house rule it that it does not get the bonus if it moved at all during the action(s) that is reserved the gunners actions for ambush.  With the lessened RC you still looking at 3 hits and 2 kills, so we're only saving one model on average.   ::)
I think that you are looking for a compromise than a true and really reasoning... ::)

Offline jjdodger

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Re: WAIT and vehicle +3 bonus
« Reply #55 on: June 15, 2007, 11:26:52 AM »
drnovice.. i think what you are forgetting is that all crew on the vehicle use their actions together. if the driver is moving the vehicle, then, at any point on the path that that vehicle takes, the gunner can shoot as the same "action", thus, the vehicle IS moving while the gunner is shooting, not, the vehicle moves 5", stops, the gunner shoots, the vehilce moves 5", stops, the gunner shoots, etc. The only time you get the "stationary +3" bonus is if the driver does not move the vehicle with his action. Hope this helps.

jeff

Offline drnovice

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Re: WAIT and vehicle +3 bonus
« Reply #56 on: June 15, 2007, 12:19:29 PM »
Rule says:

Multi-Crewed Vehicles: When a Vehicle has more than one model in its Crew, then each model has a sef of actions. In general, they must each use an action before any of them can use another action.

So if "in  general" crews must each use an action, in this particular case they mustn't use actions necessarily together, 'cause Ambush or Wait action sends again to after execution to an action which was had temporarily set aside...

According to you if the pilot stay stationary (losing all his actions) and the gunner 1 action shoots and 2 puts waiting, is different from the fact that the pilot moves all three his actions driving and the gunner shoots with the first and with the other he puts waiting?
What does it change? +3 RC doesn't depend on the fact that the pilot doesn't do anything and loses his movement actions, it depends on the fact that the vehicle at that particular moment doesn't move!

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Re: WAIT and vehicle +3 bonus
« Reply #57 on: June 15, 2007, 12:46:07 PM »
What does it change? +3 RC doesn't depend on the fact that the pilot doesn't do anything and loses his movement actions, it depends on the fact that the vehicle at that particular moment doesn't move!

Yes it does depend on that fact.

Let's say...

One the first action the driver moves.  The gunner must spend his action during the time that the vehicle is moving.  Hence, he does not get the +3 RC bonus when he shoots during that action.

On the second action the driver does not move.  The gunner gets the +3 RC for the vehicle not moving.  He shoots with the bonus to his RC.

On the third action the driver does not move.  The gunner gets the +3 RC for the vehicle not moving again.  He shoots again with the bonus to his RC.

This is not being argued and is upheld in the rules quite plainly.

What if...

One the first action the driver moves.  The gunner must spend his action during the time that the vehicle is moving.  Hence, he does not get the +3 RC when he shoots during that action.

On the second action the driver moves.  The gunner would NOT get a bonus for the vehicle moving if he fired.  He decides to reserve his action with the Ambush skill.

On the third action the driver moves.  The gunner again would NOT get a bonus for the vehicle moving if he fired.  He decides to reserve his last action with the Ambush skill.

This is also not being argued and is upheld in the rules quite plainly.

Ah...

The crux of the argument is... "Why would the ambush skill allow the gunner to get the +3 if he reserved his actions WHILE the vehicle moved?"   If he fired while moving he wouldn't have gotten it right?  So why now AFTER moving should he get the bonus?

It's a loophole that exploits the action-based sequence of the game mechanic and goes directly against the intention of the rules.  No other vehicle has the ambush skill, so no other vehicle can perform tactic.  It should never have been given to the Strike Skimmer in the first place, IMO.

What if in the same action the gunner shoots first and THEN the driver moves?  Does the gunner get a +3 to shoot because the vehicle isn't technically moving yet?  That would be another loophole interpretation on not intended by the rules.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2007, 12:55:41 PM by Wedge »

Offline dmcgee1

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Re: WAIT and vehicle +3 bonus
« Reply #58 on: June 15, 2007, 12:53:26 PM »
I would like to take this opportunity to say that this appears to be a sensitive and controversial subject, and would remind everyone to continue to display respect and decorum.  Let us not go down the path of instigation and closed-mindedness.  Remember - all opinions are valid, as is healthy discussion.  I would not like this to become a divicive issue.

Wedge, Stalker, PFC Joe, and others are FAQ Team members.  Their opinions come from an attitude of wanting to see the game thrive above their own personal desires for how something should work.  As such, their respective opinions will not always agree with how a "favorite model ought to be played..."

That said, I want to reiterate a counterpoint.  Saying that a vehicle is "still moving" after it has activated does not make sense to me, for the following reasons:

 - Single-crewed vehicles are allowed to move and fire in the same AC.  If they place their last AC on Wait, that means that the vehicle has not moved in it's last AC, and the driver would get a +3 to its RC.

 - Multi-crewed vehicles' drivers expend their AC's moving the vehicle, while crew use their AC's firing weapons.  If the driver decides to use his last AC to move, the vehicle comes to rest at the end of the move (game mechanic - you cannot assume that the vehicle is still moving as next turn it may maintain that position on its activation).  If the gunner(s) place their last AC on Wait, they are allowed to use it at any time up until the squad (vehicle) activates.  In my opinion, they should get the bonus to their RC.  It would make no sense to not give them their RC bonus, based on an assumption that the vehicle is still moving.  Further, Wait AC's are outside of the normal turn order, and should not be subject to anything that the vehicle may or may not have done.  We don't assume a gunner loses his RC bonus if hit by rocket, which would cause a lot of movement!

Special cases exist for everything.  An EDD gains all the bonuses of a single-crewed vehicle, yet the argument isn't raised about how powerful it's RC attack becomes when it doesn't move (@MR, RC 16 (x3), DM 13).  If it holds it las AC on Wait, it gets its RC bonus.  An Orca gunner may only use one AC to shoot during an activation and suffers a -3 RC penalty while firing from the Orca.  If the Orca doesn't move, he still suffers the penalty, but also gains +3 RC because the Orca is stationary during that AC - it may have moved in other AC's, but if the gunner fires in the AC the Orca doesn't move, he gets the bonus to offset the penalty.

I think, personally, that more is being made of this issue out of the sense that it seems to be overly powerful for the Skimmer gunner to be able to use two AC's to fire from Wait.  I'll concede that I believe that Ambush for a vehicle gunner is powerful, and a bit out of scope.  I think that Ambush is a skill better suited to unmounted models that can maintain a sense of stealth and surprise.  Nothing is less surprising that a hovercraft with a 20mm Vulcan spewing enough hot lead to make a Mercurian Maculator take a moment to reflect upon how its lead its existence.

However, I trust that the points were figured correctly, and that the vehicle is designed to do certain manuevers.  I welcome counterpoint, and am more than willing to explain anything upon which I have not made myself clear.

Thanks for listening, and thanks for keeping it sane, folks.
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Wedge

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Re: WAIT and vehicle +3 bonus
« Reply #59 on: June 15, 2007, 01:07:51 PM »
Dave,

You make valid points and as always I respect them.  We obviously don't see eye to eye on the subject and that is okay.  We've already agreed to disagree.  You left me an opening to try to convince you so I am continuing to plug away. :)

What is most interesting is this never comes up in Chronopia.  In Chronopia a mounted unit meets different restrictions for wait.  When a mounted unit wants to go on wait... the rider and mount must both spend an action for the mounted unit to go on wait.  A horse cannot move and then the rider wait.  He must spend the action doing something else or his part of that simultaneous action is lost.

I think this very specific rule should have been applied to Warzone vehicles as well... it would have been easier.

Or... Ambush should not have been given to the Strike Skimmer gunner.  Damn him!  Damn him to heck!

Unfortunately, things like this appear with action based sequences.  Instead of going the route of including acceleration and current vehicle speed, and declarations of speed, etc.  They went an easier route of not bogging down the system with that kind of crap.  As a result we end up with situations like this that force us to argue for four pages and get nowhere.  >:(