Author Topic: WAIT and vehicle +3 bonus  (Read 18934 times)

Offline chribu

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Re: WAIT and vehicle +3 bonus
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2006, 08:57:02 AM »
The original question referencing the Skimmer is moot because the +3 RC bonus only applies to single crewed vehicles and the Skimmer is a multi-crewed vehicle.
Actually, there is a post from Thom that says otherwise
Let me preface my posting that I appreciate the discourse on this topic, even when the sarcasm bubbles up unnessarily (IMO). As the "Enlightened" person here at EE, I was intrigued by Petias observation about single-crewed vs. multi-crewed vehicles vis-a-vis the bonus for not moving.

That +3 advantage does apply to multi-crewed vehicles when the driver spends his action to simply idle (ie-not move). It was intended to show a progression but that seems to have been misread. I am sorry for that.



On the notion of wait - I will back Joe on the statement that you do not need to react.  This was an older edition ruling.  In UWZ, you can use your wait at anytime before the unit activates again (thus loosing the held initiative) as long as you do not interrupt a die roll.
Thanks. Although I was hoping for some feedback on questions A) and B)

Offline Stalker

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Re: WAIT and vehicle +3 bonus
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2006, 09:13:52 PM »
Sorry chribu, I thought I was responding to A & B.  I was unaware of this statement from the main man.
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Offline chribu

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Re: WAIT and vehicle +3 bonus
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2006, 04:45:59 AM »
What I still haven't figured out for A) and B) is when does the +3 bonus apply.
When the driver's corresponding action wasn't used to drive or when the last driver's action wasn't used to drive?
Or as long as the driver hasn't just used his last action to drive?

Offline Stalker

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Re: WAIT and vehicle +3 bonus
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2006, 08:27:30 AM »
OK, I'm going to take a stab at A & B.  First, I've taken some time and refreshed myself with the pertinent rules.  The first problem is that the example given on page 92 about the Skimmer waiting, is an illegal maneuver unless this was amended by Thom somewhere on the forums.

When taking a wait action, the model must end it's turn.  The wait is the last thing that the model can do.  Now with Ambush, the model is allowed to take a second wait action but, the normal rules for going on wait still apply. So, the gunner would not be able to wait, wait, then act.  A Free Marine would not be able to wait, wait  and then shoot.  This is never a problem though because it is a single model so it would just shoot first and then wait.

So, the first question is do we ignore this inconsistency and assume that the Skimmer was designed to be able to pull off the maneuver that was given as an example.  I would say yes because it is blatantly given as the example.

So, this brings us back to the original question.  So now we need to consider the dynamic nature versus static representation of the game.  If the Skimmer is moving than the gunner would not get his +3 bonus.  So, we need to figure out what designates that the Skimmer is moving.  Reasonably I would surmise that if the driver moves the Skimmer with all three of his actions then the Skimmer would be in motion for the entire duration.  So, if the gunner waits then he would not get the +3 bonus.  So far pretty straight forward.  So, based off of this assesment, I would go further and say that if the driver moves the Skimmer on his third action while the gunner is on wait, then the gunner is attempting to fire while the Skimmer is moving so no bonus.

In summary, at this moment if I was moderating a tourney, I would say A)he gets the bonus and B) no bonus.

I hope that this makes sense and is helpful.
If you shoot for the moon and miss, you are still among the stars.

Offline chribu

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Re: WAIT and vehicle +3 bonus
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2006, 02:59:30 PM »
so, just to make it clear, you would go for the following?

skimmer that:
moves 1, reserves 1 wait action
moves 1, reserves 1 wait action
does not move, shoots 3 times.
All 3 rolls have +3 RC

skimmer that:
moves 1, reserves 1 wait action
moves 1, reserves 1 wait action
moves 1, shoots 1 time.
Then, during enemy unit activation, shoots twice.
No bonus for any of the three rolls

Offline Stalker

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Re: WAIT and vehicle +3 bonus
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2006, 05:50:08 PM »
Yes, chribu that is how I would call it.
If you shoot for the moon and miss, you are still among the stars.

Offline Dr. Nick

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Re: WAIT and vehicle +3 bonus
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2007, 03:33:00 AM »
If the Orca does not move there is no penalty.  It is a glorified Bunker.

what about the shooting only once.
if it is a "bunker" it should allow to shoot more than once if immobile.
(perhaps until it moves the first time in this activation)

-> if not, why should the gunner stay on the orca anyway?? (I ask, because I like orcas with gunners, but they never stay on them.. -> I now only use empty orca figs, but that looks ugly..)
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Offline dmcgee1

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Re: WAIT and vehicle +3 bonus
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2007, 03:42:59 AM »
unless specially mentioned you can't use most SA's from wait.

Especially when shooting, you have to target the closest of the closest.

-PFC joe

Not, entirely, true.  Medic may be used from Wait. 
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline drnovice

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Re: WAIT and vehicle +3 bonus
« Reply #23 on: June 10, 2007, 01:54:43 AM »
OK, I'm going to take a stab at A & B.  First, I've taken some time and refreshed myself with the pertinent rules.  The first problem is that the example given on page 92 about the Skimmer waiting, is an illegal maneuver unless this was amended by Thom somewhere on the forums.

When taking a wait action, the model must end it's turn.  The wait is the last thing that the model can do.  Now with Ambush, the model is allowed to take a second wait action but, the normal rules for going on wait still apply. So, the gunner would not be able to wait, wait, then act.  A Free Marine would not be able to wait, wait  and then shoot.  This is never a problem though because it is a single model so it would just shoot first and then wait.

So, the first question is do we ignore this inconsistency and assume that the Skimmer was designed to be able to pull off the maneuver that was given as an example.  I would say yes because it is blatantly given as the example.
I believe that is a mistake or misprint, 'cause we have general rules that says a thing, and i.e. that says another one... and it's absolutely illogical case, if it isn't explained why it.
By me, a legal manoeuvre is:
- moves 1, shoots 1 without +3 RC
- moves 1, reserves 1 wait action
- moves 1, reserves 1 wait action
- does not move, shoots 2 times with +3 RC

Offline Dr. Nick

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Re: WAIT and vehicle +3 bonus
« Reply #24 on: June 10, 2007, 09:36:20 AM »
By me, a legal manoeuvre is:
- moves 1, shoots 1 without +3 RC
- moves 1, reserves 1 wait action
- moves 1, reserves 1 wait action
that is possible because ambush.
the turn for the gunner ends then. (expend all actions to go to wait, in this case min 2)

therefore
Quote
- does not move, shoots 2 times with +3 RC
need to happen as a come-of-wait (auto-success because ambush)
since that is possible anytime -> no prob.

(the +3 does only apply if the driver/SK ends his turn, but possible before enemy activation
that is merly formal, but if he interupts the drivers drive action, the +3 does not apply, imho).
« Last Edit: June 10, 2007, 09:38:52 AM by NoTrollNick »
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Offline dmcgee1

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Re: WAIT and vehicle +3 bonus
« Reply #25 on: June 11, 2007, 01:54:39 AM »
Quote from: chribu link=topic=818.msg8661#msg8661 date=
If vehicle moves, there is no +3 RC bonus.
What about a skimmer that:
moves 1, reserves 1 wait action
moves 1, reserves 1 wait action
does not move, shoots 3 times.
a) Do all 3 rolls have +3 RC or only the first one?

It is my understanding that when a model uses Wait or Ambush, its turn is ended, hence I believe the example given is not, entirely, correct.  Therefore, if the Strike Skimmer gunner wishes to fire three times, its first AC must be fire.  If the Strike Skimmer moves during that AC, then there is no bonus.  The gunner may, then, place its remaining two AC's on Ambush, and use these after the Skimmer has come to rest, thus receiving the +3 bonus to RC on each AC that is used while the Skimmer does not move.

Quote from: chribu
What about:
moves 1, reserves 1 wait action
moves 1, reserves 1 wait action
moves 1, shoots 1 time.
Then, during enemy unit activation, shoots twice.
b) What happens here?

See above.

Quote from: chribu
ORCAs:
c) is the -3 RC penalty for instability for the HI HMG to be applied only if the ORCA moved during that activation?

I see no mention of where the gunner is not penalized.  The book specifically says that the Orca is an unstable weapons platform, and that the gunner receives a -3 at all times and may only fire once while on the Orca.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2007, 01:56:31 AM by dmcgee1 »
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline Dr. Nick

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Re: WAIT and vehicle +3 bonus
« Reply #26 on: June 11, 2007, 02:29:49 AM »
there is the faq answer stating that while not moving there is no penalty.

no mention of the only 1 time shooting, though.. (imho missed out)
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Wedge

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Re: WAIT and vehicle +3 bonus
« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2007, 09:39:30 AM »
By me, a legal manoeuvre is:
- moves 1, shoots 1 without +3 RC
- moves 1, reserves 1 wait action
- moves 1, reserves 1 wait action
- does not move, shoots 2 times with +3 RC

I disagree with this completely.  Why?  Because the actions were reserved while the vehicle is moving.  It is a loophole being exploited by a player looking for one.  I would say that the shots fired from ambush should not get the +3 RC.

This whole argument came up in 2nd edition with multi-crewed vehicles spending their actions simultaneously or whenever they wanted.  It was ruled that crew members must ALL spend their actions simultaneously so that a vehicle like a Strike Skimmer couldn't move 18" and then unload at PB range three times in succession.  It was a ridiculous notion to assume that was acceptable and cooler heads prevailed in the discussion.  It was deemed that crew weapons and single crew weapons must be fired while the vehicle was moving or the chance to fire for that action was lost.

Giving the Strike Skimmer Ambush brings back the same problem introduced in 2nd edition.  Someone could interpret the rules to do just what I described above.  It is not what was intended by the rules.

« Last Edit: June 11, 2007, 09:47:41 AM by Wedge »

Wedge

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Re: WAIT and vehicle +3 bonus
« Reply #28 on: June 11, 2007, 09:41:21 AM »
so, just to make it clear, you would go for the following?

skimmer that:
moves 1, reserves 1 wait action
moves 1, reserves 1 wait action
does not move, shoots 3 times.
All 3 rolls have +3 RC

skimmer that:
moves 1, reserves 1 wait action
moves 1, reserves 1 wait action
moves 1, shoots 1 time.
Then, during enemy unit activation, shoots twice.
No bonus for any of the three rolls

All of these are illegal as no other actions can be taken after a wait or ambush is declared.

Offline Dr. Nick

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Re: WAIT and vehicle +3 bonus
« Reply #29 on: June 11, 2007, 10:29:28 AM »
skimmer that:
moves 1, shoots 1 time.
moves 1, reserves 1 wait action
moves 1, reserves 1 wait action

Then, during enemy unit activation, shoots twice.



that should be legal.
also, on the wait-actions +3 (no moving.. may be exploit like, but the gunner shoots really later, not during the moving..)
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