Author Topic: UWZ vs 2nd?  (Read 3550 times)

Offline chribu

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UWZ vs 2nd?
« on: March 04, 2006, 04:35:05 AM »
Hi, as I'm new to warzone, I only know UWZ and never played 2nd edition.
There probably was a thread like this on the old forums, but i never got to see them.

It would be good to have a comparison of the two editions, rule-wise and balance-wise.
e.g. I hear that CC is a more feasable solution with UWZ than it was with 2nd, is that true?


btw, does anyone have a database with all the 2nd edition unit stats?

Chribu

Offline PFC joe

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Re: UWZ vs 2nd?
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2006, 04:52:14 AM »
http://forum54.oli.us/index.php?topic=420.0

most recent thread I could find.

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Offline chribu

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Re: UWZ vs 2nd?
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2006, 12:37:57 PM »
ok, please hit me with all you've got!
I *nearly* always check first to see if there's another thread on the same topic, before opening a new thread. This time I didn't :'(
Maybe I was tired, maybe it was just a moment of madness, maybe it was just destiny...
I hoped this would never happen... but it eventually did  :'(

i'm sorry :)

Now that I think about it, I had read that thread in the past, but there wasn't that much info in it, i was hoping for a more detailed description... from that thread it looks like there is very little difference between UWZ and 2nd edition, but I thought there was much more (e.g. how did the vehicles change?). Also, what about balance? Have the stats changed a lot or are they more or less the same?
Maybe I'm just trying to take my mind off the problems WZ has these days by looking into some technical data :)

Offline PFC joe

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Re: UWZ vs 2nd?
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2006, 06:21:48 AM »
The rules are mostly the same.
The stats have been reworked and rebalanced entirely.  While the numbers are similiar they are also different.  (if that makes any sense)

for RC you still measure the distance to the closest legal target, check the chart for RC modifiers, adjust the to-hit and Roll.

CC eliminated the Strike back, which is a MAJOR change.  It makes CC units viable (gettin them there is still up tp you).

Leadership and high LD individuals have much mroe important roles.  It is very difficult to keep squads functional without a guy in the back (or front) to make LD checks off of.  Captains and Officers are there not to slaughter everything, but to provide for morale and tactical boosts.

Vehicles are a bit simplified.  They are allowed one  turn per move  of up to their prescribed turning radius (check the chart).  They can move and fire with the same action.  The double armor save was removed and (what many see as a weakness) they have a bonus armor at the risk of having specific weapons do extra damage to them.   The also have "safe wounds" which are just wounds that don't overtly affect the performance, though when safe wounds are exhausted you start to have issues.  You can't hit the crew.

More differed and varied units.

The weapons all have names again.

-PFC joe

(anything specific?)
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Offline mchiao

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Re: UWZ vs 2nd?
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2006, 11:01:00 AM »
One of the things that I like in UWZ is the grunt (the really really grunt) now moves at 4 now.  It make the force a bit more diversified in terms of movement.  In old editions, most troops move at 3 regardless of their armor.

This way, it actually pays to play th grunts because of that.

Just my 2 cents

Offline chribu

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Re: UWZ vs 2nd?
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2006, 11:38:41 AM »
thanks, the picture is a bit clearer...
what about uber-units? where there any units too strong in the 2nd edition that have been toned down? Or maybe units that are too god now and were more balanced in the 2nd edition?

e.g. i heard something about a deathdroid+diana thing...
« Last Edit: March 05, 2006, 11:40:24 AM by chribu »

Offline Pietia

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Re: UWZ vs 2nd?
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2006, 11:51:51 AM »
2nd ed: Vulkans were well-balanced, Orcas were Shooty Machines From Hell
UWZ: Orcas are well balanced, Vulkans are Shooty Machines From Hell

Shooting in UWZ is a little bit less deadly, as it is easier to protect your troops (smoke etc.). Dark Symmetry spells in UWZ are much more powerful and much cheaper than in 2nd edition (let's be honest - too powerful and too cheap). Generally, UWZ is more fun, but less balanced - a "regular" army is no match for a fully-cheesed out army of the same point value (except in some very rare circumstances).

Offline PFC joe

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Re: UWZ vs 2nd?
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2006, 11:52:15 AM »
argueably, there are no uberunits.  (other than the Vulkans)

there are certain powerful combinations, Diana behind any of the multiwound Cyber models (most of them)  and certain Mishima combinations (walkers/Snipers) but I assure you that the one thing that will always beat them is sound tactics.

 (and a dash of luck)

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Offline PFC joe

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Re: UWZ vs 2nd?
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2006, 12:00:38 PM »
whoops you beat me to the mark.

While I do have issues with the Vulkans (my group downgraded them to regular HMG's)  the spells tend to not be entirely overpowered and are generally limited by range and casting unit cost. 

While you can get Valpie with Apoc for 61 points (i think someone with the book check handy me) the range of the spell is only 24" and it takes at least two actions to even get the damage up to pistol strength.  Combine with his doddering old-guy speed and he can be out manevuered with relative ease.

The only other overkill spell I can think of is Chain Lightening and if I recall, it's actually less effective than second ed  (but still just as fun) and rarely generates more than two kills (three if you absolutly pack them in there).  The prohibitive cost for the Ilian casters means that you generally break even for total points damage inflicted vs nepharite w/spell costs.

If you want the completely vanilla every corps has a generic "Assault Rifle" while the two FOW's are completely outta spectrum type of balance, then yes second ed is more balanced.

For the most part however, UWZ is the most balanced (stats vs armor vs speed vs PC) version out there.

-PFC joe

(and my regular armies beat the Mishima walker/faceless/sniper combo regularly)
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Offline chribu

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Re: UWZ vs 2nd?
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2006, 12:43:06 PM »
there are certain powerful combinations, Diana behind any of the multiwound Cyber models (most of them)  and certain Mishima combinations (walkers/Snipers) but I assure you that the one thing that will always beat them is sound tactics.
talking about 2nd or UWZ? for me, medics don't seem that good in UWZ


what's "FOW"?

Offline PFC joe

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Re: UWZ vs 2nd?
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2006, 12:46:42 PM »
she's gotta decent chance are returning wounds to those metal monsters.  (iffy, but hey the longer they're fighting the longer they're fighting.

Forces Of War.  The Capitol and Bauhaus second edition books.

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Offline Pietia

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Re: UWZ vs 2nd?
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2006, 11:31:14 PM »
the range of the spell is only 24" and it takes at least two actions to even get the damage up to pistol strength.  Combine with his doddering old-guy speed and he can be out manevuered with relative ease.
The trick is NOT to get the damage up. 7(x4) is sooo much better than 9(x2). With such a large template this spell is absolutely devastating. 24" range is long enough - at least it was in most of the games I've played with or against DL so far.
The only other overkill spell I can think of is Chain Lightening and if I recall, it's actually less effective than second ed 
Chain Lightning is quite poor in fact (its comparable to HMG). Demnogonis spells (large template of LV6 smoke - very efficient, the moving template that blocks LOS and makes the enemy to roll ATS - VERY deadly) and Ilian combos such as teleporting Behemots are so much more interesting...

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Re: UWZ vs 2nd?
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2006, 01:00:50 AM »
Basically, heres what was wrong with 2nd:

1.  The Units book was incomplete.  There were alotta absent units that obviously needed to exist in order to make the game fair.  For example, Mishima and Imperials didnt have a Rocket Launcher Specialists.  However, they intended to address this issue with future supplements...

2.  Unbalanced Supplements.  Basically they took the two most popular (ie most unbalanced) armies, Bauhaus and Capitol, and made them even MORE unbalanced.  Its kind of hard to explain if youve never played 2nd ed,but imagine this: before the game, your buddy walks over to your copy of UWZ and crosses out 2/3s of the units from your army.  That was what it was like playing against Bauhaus or Capitol....or the Dark Legion.

3.  Dark Legion.  Dark Legion was and probably still is the most powerful f------ s---- youve ever seen put onto a 4x6 table.  Theyd give you nightmares, i swear.  They had spells that could annihilate entire squads.  And the Razide?  F---!

4. The Razide.  The Razide gets his own section because he was a 89pt 4 wounded thrilling machine with 15 armor and a x4 attack modifier.  This guy made Vulkans his b- ... feminine servant.  This guy was so strong there was an unwritten rule: Only 1 Razide per Army.  I forget what he looks like in 3rd ed, but they could have made him twice as expensive and he would still be awesome.

5. Close Combat.  Basically close combat was like this weird thing that would only happen when you got bored and said "hey, why not."  Unless you were a god-like individual like Crenshaw the Mortificator or Toshiro, there was no reason to get into close combat.  They got to attack you back!  FOR FREE!!! It was so retarded.  Your elite Mishima ninjas would enhance charge Bauhaus grunts and DIE in close combat...well atleast mine usually did.


So, be very very thankful for 3rd ed. its easily x10 better than 2nd.  Army wise, rules wise, its great....except Cybertronic are super imba, but thats another thread all together.