Author Topic: Errs...or just a weak Brotherhood?  (Read 27271 times)

Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Errs...or just a weak Brotherhood?
« Reply #30 on: December 03, 2007, 06:38:46 PM »
This topic should probably be moved out of FAQ, now, as it is not, truly, a question regarding rules or clarifications.
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline Coil

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Re: Errs...or just a weak Brotherhood?
« Reply #31 on: December 04, 2007, 12:12:05 PM »
Your wish is my command Dave.

Your Cartel Police were really good in that game. Together with the superior AR fire from the troopers it made life hard on the DL side of the table. Those darn Razides were still a pain though.

Offline Freak2

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Re: Errs...or just a weak Brotherhood?
« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2007, 10:04:56 AM »
Not going to go over the stuff I posted ages ago but I think both sides here are right.

The Brotherhood ARE underpowered, the lack of specialists and the reduced power of the Art in comparison even to the DL powers is obvious. Was looking over some of the old 1st edition powers and was going to try expanding what powers are available.

However there is very little wrong with the models in the army that ARE there though they do require a different tactical set-up to the Corporate armies and a little tweaking to things like Shadow Walk would help.

In one of the last games I played a while ago we tried out a Valkyrie LFT and she worked well, not to deadly but definitely improved the bite of the unit.

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Re: Errs...or just a weak Brotherhood?
« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2007, 11:00:02 AM »
The following is simply my opinions...

I had been an avid Brotherhood player since first edition.  They were extremely powerful in 1st edition and I could only lose if I rolled terrible.  I never rolled terrible and I don't think I ever lost with them.   ;)

They were toned down in 2nd edition.  They were still quite playable and I still think I fared on the positive side in the win/lose ratio.  They fared much better against Dark Legion than the other corps but I took that as an expected result.  My DL playing friend despised playing against me in 1st and 2nd edition.

They were toned down even more in 3rd edition.  I personally feel that the fractionalization of the elite and individual units, coupled with the dimished impact of the art, completely castrated my Brotherhood army.  Maybe that is too harsh.  Let's say they were rendered almost ineffective in my eyes.  After some serious play and facing numerous armies with the UWZ Brotherhood I don't think I won a single battle until I tried an experiment army.  I played against Bauhaus with an ALL GRUNT army.  Nothing but troopers, arch primates, and death angels.  I decimated my Bauhaus opponent and he was shocked.  After trying the same army again against Dark Legion I had the same result.  Total annihilation.  I think I had 2/3 of my army left and not a rotting DL corpse was left standing.

In my experience with them I determined they were a one-punch army and the art was almost pointless.  Not being able to pick and pull elites and individuals from the respective directorates really hurts the army.  Getting certain spells is too work is not worth the effort and impact.  I'd rather move with 100% effectiveness than attempt a shadow walk moving the same distance (yes, there are times when it can be effective but not often enough to be worthy of the attempt).

Bottom line:  I had to abandon my most favored army to play my second favorite army (which quickly became my favorite): Semai.  Now that army is a lot of fun to play!

Offline warzoneD

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Re: Errs...or just a weak Brotherhood?
« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2007, 11:29:21 AM »
RE: Evolving rules. 

I am also a Bloodbowl player - and though that game is no longer officially evolving, the fans have continued to work with the Jervis Johnson the game designer (through forums like this) to improve and balance the game.

The newest incarnation is the LRB (or Living Rulebook) 5.0.  This PDF is avail. for a freedownload, and the game remains very much alive.

I supose my suggestion is that, since there is obviusly a universal consensus that the Brotherhood is underpowered, we all might contribute to creating some "Officially unofficial" rule changes, esp. no new rulebooks it seems are going to be released (although whispers that the planet campaigns and a vehicle book might be avail. on PDF fill me glee). 

That might rub some strictly by the book tournament folks the wrong way, but in my (dare I say) more than 20 years in the hobby - game rules (which invariably can not exhaustively cover or playtests every aspect of a game system) have always been meant to be modified and improved upon by the players.

Anyway, I'm the new kid on the block around here, so I'm only suggesting it.  I leave it to you adminsitrators and emeritus types to consider.  As I understand it, some of you are friends/in touch with the game's designers.  It would be great to get them involved and their stamp of approval.

Warm regards and happy holidays to all.

D


Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Errs...or just a weak Brotherhood?
« Reply #35 on: December 09, 2007, 05:48:47 AM »
There's nothing wrong with suggestions - especially those made with diplomacy, forethought and consideration (respect) for the game.  Suggestions and debate are a way to help the game continue, and to evolve.

My original reply at the beginning of this thread was intended for those that would decry a rule or a model without, first, fully play-testing it.

Many folks in this thread have, indeed, chosen sides on this tiopic, and yet none have presented themselves as anything other than players of the game who would like to see the game continue - kudos, folks.

I have made suggestions in the past, and through discussion, I found that my opinion was not correct.  However, it is only through making the suggestion and generating discussion about it did I realize that I was wrong.  Sometimes, we discovered I was right.  Because I did not let being proven wrong prevent me from making other observations, I was able to persuade others to see my point(s).

Once again, I am heartened by this discussion.  It may result in no change to the current rules, but it is generating excellent viewpoints and discussion.  Keep up the good work.  Keep showing respect for your fellow players and the game.  Karma to all in the discussion.

If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline Archer

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Re: Errs...or just a weak Brotherhood?
« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2007, 08:44:03 AM »
OUCH!!!  I believe I was rebuffed.    :o

But its true Thom....  but getting ahold of you on the phone is usually about as easy as moving a battlship with a paddle. :) :) ;D
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Offline kwegibu

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Re: Errs...or just a weak Brotherhood?
« Reply #37 on: December 13, 2007, 07:51:12 PM »
I've always really enjoyed playing the brotherhood. I tend to buy mostly their grunts because their grunts are, in my opinion, their strong point.

I can certianly name troops i think are weak and acknowledge the Art is largely useless. That said, every army has there troops that don't field well. I think it's important to note that and that this thread hasn't focused on that. I can't think of a single force that doesn't have troops i never buy.

I do find it sad that i can't field crenshaw and the mortificators as effectivly in 3rd as I did in 2nd - I don't even buy them any more. And I really liked them for fluff reasons. In fact, I play the brotherhood for fluff reasons alone.

I haven't lost with brotherhood in a while, but I also haven't played against someone with enough patience to be tactical in a while.

In my experience they do better in scenario based conflicts then total elimnation when up against equally experienced players.

Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Errs...or just a weak Brotherhood?
« Reply #38 on: December 14, 2007, 03:20:12 PM »
Great, now I have to get a Brotherhood army together just to prove/disprove this perception (yeah, like I needed an excuse anyway)
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline pinksuezo

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Re: Errs...or just a weak Brotherhood?
« Reply #39 on: December 14, 2007, 07:58:19 PM »
well... i know everyones been bashing 2nd ed. lately, but if its any consolation to anyone fond of the militant church, in my last game last week a brotherhood force made up mostly of troopers and arch primates thwomped a dark legion force. the sniper did particularly well, taking out a necromutant with a tormentor right before he got in range to do damage. a merc mac was turned to a big pile of green pudding before he could retreat to regenerate, and the game ended in a funny note with the last surviving necromutant trying to flee off the table to safety, but getting sniped at long range by a trooper with a rocket launcher. very sweet.  :P
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Offline Topkick

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Re: Errs...or just a weak Brotherhood?
« Reply #40 on: December 14, 2007, 08:16:29 PM »
Time to paint up an Inquisitor or Cardinal in red and yellow. Anyone have a copy of the song American Made? What ya gonna do when the Inquisition runs wild on you?
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. - Dr. Seuss (1904 - 1991)

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Offline Archer

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Re: Errs...or just a weak Brotherhood?
« Reply #41 on: December 16, 2007, 05:54:01 AM »
Great, now I have to get a Brotherhood army together just to prove/disprove this perception (yeah, like I needed an excuse anyway)

More than welcome to borrow what I have, my friend.
John "Archer" Tinney

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Offline Lopis

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Re: Errs...or just a weak Brotherhood?
« Reply #42 on: December 16, 2007, 01:36:46 PM »
OK guys seems to me to be a rules question, but it fits to the topic of a weak brotherhood.
First of all I too think that th Brotherhood has become the underdog.
Why: I got a thrashinī everytime. Perhaps Iīm too dumb to play, or there wasnīt enough szenario involved. In open combat on a reletively clear field you get killed.
In close quarters this would be different, cause the CC-guys arenīt that bad. And with infiltrating Grunts its a nice option. So there are many possibilities and I thought of quite some combinations, but as I said I always lost.
Maybe on the other hand it was a problem concerning the opposing army, put together in a (in my eyes very broken) way, that isnīt any fun, but entitles you to nearly sure victory. (Please donīt misunderstand me. I donīt use the word broken very often and the meant army is put together according tot the rules and using every possibility given there. Itīs OK, but I havenīt yet found a way around it.)
I still like to play Brotherhood and its a cool faction for playing, cause its completely different to the other factions..... but it doesnīt make any fun to get you butt kicked over and over again....

But now to my question:
It could boost Brotherhood up quite a bit.

OK, Brotherhood according to FAQ doesnīt use Forward Observers the normal way.
Every model with channeling ability in Mentalism can place a chit for the Artillery.
For the smart Bomb that would cost one action and a LD Test. All thats needed....
For the Judgement of the Cardinal I would need at least two chits for calling it down or more to raise its power.
So the next round I donīt need a real Force Commander to activate the strike. I only need a channeler.

That right so far??

That makes it far easier for Brotherhood to call in Off-Board Artillery and playing thus for area denial and bringing you CC-troops to the fore by keeping the enemy moving out of Danger from the Artillery. A quite remarkable tactical possibility I would like to test.

So the next question is:

Do I need a real force commander?
Meaning a Force commander who is positioned for the 6 squads and 3 other Individuals?
As I read it, I wouldnīt need such a guy...
Only neending a channeler.
This would entitle the Brotherhood to use Artillery in much smaller forces which would be a good boost for the troops.

Or do I have to do it the other way round in this case; it would be possible to call in a Artillery Strike with the channelers without the Force commander using the rules for calling the strike in without a Force Commander through the FOīs through another LD-Test applying deviation for failed tests....


Last question:
As I read it a normal Forward observer needs all his 3 actions to place a chit, but doesnīt need a LD test to do so.
A Brotherhood channeler needs only one action, but has to pass a LD check.
Both can only use this option ONCE per turn.
Does it mean a channeler who failed his LD test canīt TRY AGAIN with his remaining actions, or does it mean he canīt place a SECOND chit
Or doesnīt it even appl on the channelers because they arenīt classical Forward observers?

Quote rule pg. 58:

The Fomard Observer model may attempt a Fire
Mission during its Activation. Calling in a Fire Mission consumes all three actions from a Forward Observer. The target location is then marked with a chit.Only one fire mission may be attempted per turn.


Quote rules pg. 62:

While Brotherhood procedure dicfates that an Enquisitos or Inquisitor Majonk should pronaunce Judgment, it does not have 3
to be. Any Channeling mode! In LOS may do so--even models that did not participate in the placemenl of marker chits.
Upon the pronouncement of the Judgment, place a large exptosion template over the target location. Any model under the 5
template is sngttlfed in the blue-white flames of a residual DAM 8 attack. which ignores the effects af cover. Every
additional chit beyond the required two will add +2 to the DLI IW of the i sttack.

quote faq :

#  Let's start with the Brotherhood. Cleansing Flame isn't a "art power" in the sense that others are (ie-back of the section). Since wielding the art takes a great amount of mental acumen and personal power, the Brotherhood uses channelers to function as Forward Observers. Thus any channeler may function as a Forward Observer and every FO knows how to call forth the "Cleansing Flame" when using the Judgment of the Cardinal Power. It is this very perspicacity that allows them to function well as Forward Observers, by nature a skill requiring a great attention to detail.
# When making the LD test to place the marker, the Brotherhood refers to it as "Cleansing Flame" and it is an LD test like any other FO action. As mentalism is often used to describe art, it should not be confused with powers from the Mentalism List. It is not treated as a specific power is. Consider it a general function of Brotherhood Channelers. This same system applies to the Cardinal's Fist Smart Bomb.

P.S.: OK just read it over again and its crap....I used copy/paste out of the pdf for the quotations and somehow some of the charakters got messed up. Just forget misspellings ;-)
« Last Edit: December 16, 2007, 01:57:05 PM by Lopis »
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Offline Dr. Nick

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Re: Errs...or just a weak Brotherhood?
« Reply #43 on: December 16, 2007, 03:13:19 PM »
i donīt know the answer, but how did you copy/paste the txt?

all i have is a pdf with images (not markable txt)  ???
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Offline Lopis

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Re: Errs...or just a weak Brotherhood?
« Reply #44 on: December 16, 2007, 03:33:30 PM »
As to copy/paste:

I use the pdf-creator, not just the reader.
With this you can grab the text out of the documents. Apparently it doesnīt work good all the times. If its formatted in another way, say a transformed normal text of word to pdf or a pdf-composure of good quality it doesnīt make any mistakes... ;-)

And to topic again:

After reading the chapters referring to my question again, it becomes even more interesting:

Thereīs never stated that you need the Art-aspect of mentalism. Itīs even pretty openly clarified that you donīt need mentalism. Just the ability to channel.

Next thing ist the LOS.
As reading it again there even no mentioning of a maximum distance for the LOS.
Normal FOīs need a distacenof maximum 16 inches. As far as itīs stated for the channeling for the Off-Board-Artillery (OBA) you only need LOS.
And then a LD test.

So again two questions, partly covered before by my questions:

Does a normal FO make a LD test for placing a chit?
--> as far as I read it, he uses his three actions an NO LD-Test-
--> The BH-Channeler uses only one action, but has to make a LD test. Pass/Fail-Problematic as asked before....


Is the channeler making a Test for the OBA bound to the 16 inches in LOS, or only to the LOS ?
--> this does not except him for the rule of placing a chit no further away than the nearest enemy model, which surely applies for them as well..

P.S.: Since Iīm a foreign writer, please excuse some misspellings, pleas.
Read my former post yet another time and found that I have to throw in some "r"īs an "e"s and substract some "t"s and such.
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