Author Topic: Engaging two models.  (Read 308 times)

Offline Buzzu

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Engaging two models.
« on: August 25, 2018, 07:25:19 PM »
Here I come back with a theme already discussed in other threads but never fixed. It's something crucial and capital because depending on the answer the efficiency of many units will be completely reversed and the game tactics changed. The basic question is: am I allowed to engage two models with a single one? Here in Italy we have two different ways of playing it.

Version 1) (played by Kvaerne and his friends)
No. You are compelled to charge one and only one enemy, no matter what's your size or whatever special ability you've got.
You have to charge your closest enemy (apart from leaping and heroes trying LD tests) with the shortest movement of your model.
 
Version  2) (played by Buzzu and FCM and their friends)
Yes, admitted that you have to make a direct movement (rules say DIRECT, not shorter, which IMHO means you simply can't turn around your foe) and you'll apply your charging bonus on one of your enemies only.

I use to play version two. Here's why:
Consider those three cases:
- Sweep
- Secondary attack
- Monsters with a large size (and base).
If you have to engage just always one figure at time, the above cases are really lowered in efficiency. A Sweep attack will never be done. According to the sustainers of version 1), indeed, you can perform a sweep attack only when enemy models surround you in engaging you, you survive, and you can than try your sweep. So the idea is that your fearsome warrior with a two handed axe is a sort of Bud Spencer, slapping back a bunch of fool idiots who attacked you in mass waiting for your push. Ridiculous.
Same thing for a model with secondary attack. Is this ability really a second chance to kill the same foe I charged? Do I really suck my second attack if I'm lucky enough to kill with my first? Very sad and very poor. I imagine a whirling fighter who throws himself in the middle of enemy ranks dealing fast blows swinging his blades... otherwise I can't figure out why some champions (i.e. S.o.K. Warriors or Elven Axemen) have two small weapons with secondary attack while the rest of the warband hits stronger. If he's a champion, he should be more dangerous, not weaker than his comrades.
Same thing for large monsters: is it so strange to think that a two tons creature could slam two or three people by impacting against them? To me, it's perfectly legit, and I found a little absurd that he has to choose his victim in the middle. C'mon...

Fixing this point is really, really important. Units like cursed or berserkers or sister of Tiamat or many others could be re- or de- evaluated depending on this.
Rember that, even sustaining version  2), we always apply the charging bonus to ONE of the foes you get in contact with, making a normal attack on the other(s).
If you think it's too powerful playing this way, just try it. If you miss your target you'll be in SERIOUS troubles... It simply is more amazing, and gives more value to your units.

As always, I wrote too much. Now it's up to you.
Thanks for your answers about it.

Offline joshuaslater

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Re: Engaging two models.
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2018, 04:29:09 PM »
As the game stands , it is balanced reasonably well.  If you are going to let models with sweep, secondary attack, or large monsters attack with those special abilities, against more than one model, you will have to adjust the points, OR, play with the current points, and possibly adjust the army composition.

An example would be the Troll Deathseeker.  Assuming he doesnít fumble 20 out style, he could probably charge into a unit and base two models with each of his three actions, and take out six opponents.  Of course, a failure means heís ganged up on.  There is some risk attached to failure, but at the current points, he will usually take out three soldiers per activation, or a large monster. 

How does a special ability sound giving a model the ability to base multiple opponents?  This might be an easier fix than breaking the whole game apart?
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Offline Buzzu

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Re: Engaging two models.
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2018, 10:03:57 AM »
Well Josh, your answer let me with a taste of bitter. I was not trying to change the game or break some rule. I was just saying that the group of players I'm in ALREADY plays like this, and the problem arose when confronting with another group who told us our interpretation of the rules was wrong. Which seems to be what you're confirming. But I think it IS balanced like we are used to play. Otherwise I can't understand why I should play a large monster with multiple attacks instead of a humanoid sized hero with a multiplyer to his weapon. The first one is easier to be aimed by enemy shooters, can be surrounded by much more people, and has more chanches to make a fumble, considering it has to roll for each attack. The second one forces his opponent to make more armor rolls with a single good attack. So why a large monster usually costs more points?
How can you justify a price of 52 points for s.o.k. berserkers against a 51 for viridian lords? Viridian lords have more armor, two wounds, are steadfast, and can throw an axe when charging (no def of the opponent) with a damage of 15, before hitting him in close combat. Berserkers have one wound, are naked, and a basic damage of 7. But they have ferocity, berserker ability and... Secondary attack. They cost SO MUCH that they surely will be outnumbered. If they don't tear out the enemy warband they stay in fury losing 4 points of def, which is their only hope of saving themselves (having no armor). How could they get the task if they can't deliver their attacks against multiple foes??? Why do they cost so much if they do a significantly lower double damage to an opponent than their green viridian comrades??? This sounds a little nonsense to me. I was really convinced that this way of playing granted MORE balance to the game, as the units are intended to work.

Please consider this: the charge bonus will always be applied to ONE opponent only. This means that, unless you have those multiple attack abilities or stats, it will always be convenient to charge and ingage only one foe, so to maximizer the attack with the charge bonus.

Offline joshuaslater

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Re: Engaging two models.
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2018, 07:03:12 PM »
Sorry if I came across that way.  It was not my intention.  Iíve been thinking about it, and I think I should play it and test your idea to see how it goes.  Do you or anyone in your group have the ability to make a video demonstration of this idea? 
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Offline Buzzu

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Re: Engaging two models.
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2018, 12:25:44 AM »
It's no matter at all. I was not offended in any way, just felt the unpleasant sensation of being misunderstood. :)

I'll make the video more than gladly. Just give me the time to reach my minis (I'm away from home right now) and prepare/cut/fix it. ;)

Offline Jaypeel

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Re: Engaging two models.
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2018, 05:37:43 AM »
M 2 cents.
I haven't played Chronopia in ages... Starting to get back into it again, dusting off the old models and breaking out the paints.
For what its worth, we have always played  1st and 2nd edition like Buzzu. Allowing models to engage multiple enemies. We found it doesn't hurt the game and seems to make the most sense, otherwise why take beserkers I my SoK army or any large monsters?
I guess we've been playing it wrong all these years..