Author Topic: Army composition and allied units  (Read 1210 times)

Offline Buzzu

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Army composition and allied units
« on: August 26, 2016, 01:35:48 AM »
Back again to ask for your help. The question I pose here is a clarification needed by my game opponents who don't trust me...
We all know that if your army can field down allies, you can place on the table up to the 33% of your troops with allied units. The question is about how you should apply the sentence: normal rules for purchasing individuals and missile warbands are still applied.
I always thought that this means you can purchase your allied units (up to 33%) assuring that, in the WHOLE army resulting, the missile units are no more than the 40% and there are no more heroes than warbands.
Some of my opponents are saying instead that it should mean you have to reflect that percentages in the 33% of the allied units, which means that you need an allied warband before fielding an individual, and that you can field only the 40% of your 33% of allied units equipped with missile weapons, which, in my opinion, is ridiculous, considering that on a 1000 points army this would mean a maximum of 132 points of allied missile units. No more than four medium shooters...

The question rose up reading the Jade House Elves (page 244) where the sentence about the army composition is written in an ambiguous way, saying you can field up to 1/3 of your army of swamp goblins, and that rules for purchasing individuals and missile units are "as written in the swamp goblins army list". Please clarify once and for all the rule, so to make my opponents comfortable with the fact that I CAN use only individuals of my allies if the whole number of the individuals is not over the number of my warbands.

Thank you so much, and sorry to bother.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2016, 06:08:33 AM by Buzzu »

Offline Delthos

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Re: Army composition and allied units
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2016, 03:08:39 PM »
I've always interpreted it that you have to meet the normal army construction rules in the allied force. So a 1500 point Sons of Kronos Shadow Tribe could have 500 points of Devout. 200 points of those Devout could be missile troops, and you could have one Devout Individual for each Devout Warband. The reason I believe it is that way is that they don't go out of their way to point out that the allies must follow the rules with the Dwarves, but they do for the Swamp Goblins and the Sons of Kronos. From a thematic point of view it also makes sense to me. This is an allied force from another "country" if you will. They still have their own command structure. While they are fighting with your main army, they are still an independent force.

Offline Buzzu

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Re: Army composition and allied units
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2016, 07:23:13 PM »
If it works like that, than tell me how is it possible to field an Unholy Champion amidst a warband of SoK Unlivings or a Repulsar Knight in command of a Sok warband of tribe warriors, as clearly stated that you can do and they offer their bonuses to the allied troops (I invite you to read the "standard of the Hatred and Untamed" thread in the FAQs).

Cheers.

Offline Jr_Boyd

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Re: Army composition and allied units
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2016, 02:43:12 PM »
I play like Delthos, I would not have written it any different from what he has.

JB

Offline Buzzu

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Re: Army composition and allied units
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2016, 07:44:15 PM »
Which advantage should I take by playing firstborn allied troops with a tribe of dawn of 1000 AP? Following your way of playing I could not play a missile warband, since even the smaller one would already be more expensive than the 40% of 333 points. According to your rules I could not play a hero to give bonuses to my warbands (and we already stated you CAN, please read the thread "Standard of the Hatred and Untamed!); this would bring me to field only a melee warband and a hero giving them some bonus, which is exactly what I don't need with the Sons of Kronos. Please, trust me. The percentage is on the WHOLE army you field, assuming that the ratio of your allies should not pass the 33% limit. But I'm absolutely legitimated to play allied heroes only if they don't exceed the number of my warbands and their total in lower than 334%.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2016, 07:46:36 PM by Buzzu »

Offline Delthos

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Re: Army composition and allied units
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2016, 08:30:37 PM »
I don't see a problem with not being able to field a missile unit from an allied force if you aren't playing a high enough points game. I suggest playing 1200 point games if you want to field a First Born missile unit with your Sons of Kronos, that is if you are playing the way I interpret it.

I'm not sure what you are asking about the hero. Your leaders you take with your allies can affect the units in your primary army. I was just saying that for composition purposes they are separate forces. I was pointing out that for army composition purposes the allies are a separate army, but not during play.

I'm not saying you are wrong if you want to play it that way and your group is alright with it. I'm just saying it's the way I play it and the way I interpret the rules for the armies. There is no reason to point out that they must follow the restrictions on individuals and missile units if they counted towards the composition for your main army as those are the default rules to use anyway. Other than being redundant, there is no reason to do so if not to indicate the allies must follow the normal restriction within themselves.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2016, 07:37:20 AM by Delthos »

Offline Buzzu

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Re: Army composition and allied units
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2016, 07:13:02 AM »
Well Delthos, the point is my opponents don't agree with me. So it's not a metter of how you or me could freely give an interpretation of what'a written, but of what do the rules really say. And I would like an official answer to know what to do.
That's it.

By the way, no matter at all with you all, of course! Peace and love, Bro.

Offline Delthos

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Re: Army composition and allied units
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2016, 08:39:41 AM »
I wish you luck then. In the mean time I suggest you play according to they way that most of your group currently believe it to be. Ask them to try it out once or twice and see if it is unbalanced. IF the official answer is the way I'm interpreting it, I'm sure it's in there for balance reasons. Unfortunately, official answers to the rules questions are definitely becoming harder and harder to come by as time goes by.  I know it can be frustrating playing in a way you feel is wrong as I have been in similar situations before in other games. In the end I suspect it really wouldn't be all that unbalanced to do it in the way you are suggesting, but without testing it myself I can't say one way or another. I don't play enough to be able to spend time testing it either. It could be that doing it the way you want, is too unbalancing. I can see how cherry picking the best missile units and leaders from your allies while using the composition of your entire army could be problematic.

Offline Buzzu

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Re: Army composition and allied units
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2016, 12:12:14 PM »
I can assure you that I always loose even playing as I say...  ;D

Offline joshuaslater

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Re: Army composition and allied units
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2016, 07:28:37 PM »
40% of the whole army can be missile troops.  Doesn't matter if some of the army is allies.  You still have to obey the rules of one individual to one squad, but not apply the 40 % rule to the allies. 
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Offline Buzzu

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Re: Army composition and allied units
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2016, 05:38:58 AM »
Thanks for your answer, Josh. I knew I was right about missile troops. But I still have not undestood if I need a warband of allies for every allied hero or if I can place only allied heroes as long as the rule of one hero for warband is respected for the WHOLE army. Thanks again and sorry to bother, but this is a fundamental point of discussion.

Offline DARNIZHAAN

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Re: Army composition and allied units
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2016, 07:52:03 PM »
I don't know if you'll ever get an official answer but if I was playing against you it wouldn't bother me.

Offline joshuaslater

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Re: Army composition and allied units
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2016, 06:21:37 AM »
No.  You do not need to get too complicated.  An example.  If I run a Shadow Tribe force, I might take 1/3 of the points and spend it on 3 Devout Individuals.  I will make sure the rest of the force has 3 Units.   Nowhere does it say the allies have to be whole squads, or a squad with an individual.  The wording is a bit confusing. 

Warzone had more complicated rules for Elites, Squads, Support, etc.  We don't need that in Chronopia.
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Offline Buzzu

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Re: Army composition and allied units
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2016, 12:59:38 PM »
Marvelous. So, I was right  8)

Darnizhaan, I appreciate your observation too. I think my opponents should be OK if I prefer to play my Goblin blowpipers instead of Jade elf archers...  ;)