Author Topic: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!  (Read 4578 times)

Offline Buzzu

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UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
« on: September 22, 2015, 02:27:45 PM »
Hy everyone.

As emerged on many posts on this forum, there are some units that gave all the players some perplexion.
As a player, I always let it go, choosing not to field those units, maybe.
But, seen that every player is a playtester, and seen that some adjustments were made after the main rulebook for some units, I'm purposing now a thread to ask for some little more adjustment to give more satisfaction to the unhappy players, and to give a tactical and background boost to the different troops of the game.

I really, really appreciated the modifications from first edition to the second one, but there are some troops that really give all the players a question mark when reading the stats and the relative cost.

I invite then all the players to tell which units are worth a discussion about, and I invite everyone to be really careful about it: don't make posts asking for a three point adjustment just beacause you think the right cost is three points less or more... give some serious tactical (or background reason) and let's try to identify no more than five units to discuss about. AND give a suggestion for the change, please, don't limit your intervention to a complain.

In my humble opinion, having played many armies and having discussed it with my friends, the most insensate units are the following ones:

1) Swamp Goblin Headhunters
They cost three points less than the Mantis Guard, which is superior in almost every aspect. There's no tactic relevance for the headhunters, and no reason to prefeer them instead of the guardians. So, by reflecting together with Jr Boyd and Kvaerne, we suggest two different options. A) Increase the cost of three points (making them equal to the mantis guard) but give them the berserk special ability. This would reflect better their background and would give them an offensive relevance in play. B) Letting their cost untouched but give them 4 inches of move (instead of 3) and give them the sweep.

2) Blackblood goblin spearmen
Compared with all the other armies of the game, this unit is too cheap for what they do. I suggest to elevate their cost at least to 12 AP each.

3) SoK Berserkers
They cost 52 points and are fragile as paper sheets. For one point more I can field viridian lords, and there's no comparison in power. The berserkers are really well fitted with their background and they have great abilities, but the price is nonsense. I suggest to let the price untouched but give them two wounds OR three actions. Otherwise low down the price to something closer to a blade maiden, considering they are the only alternative to those ones if playing the shadow tribe.

4) Mounted warbands
There are many mounted warbands between the armies. I'm thinking to the swamp goblin drone riders or to the devout blood hunters...
I think the price is really too high. I can understand that a mounted hero is powerful leader, but a warband should have the chance to be fielded whole, and I NEVER saw a player put on the filed a complete mounted warband, because if you do it there's no room for other units.
I think they should be lowered down of a tenth of AP. If you think it's a lot, try to consider that you HAVE to put at least a couple of them plus leader.

5) Dwarf wolf legion
I've not understood why the gauntlets have been adjusted in the FAQ with a movement of 3, while the swordsman no. I played them, till now, with two different movements even if in the same warband. Am I wrong? Hope so...

Ok, these are my suggestions. Please, tell if you agree or not, and if there's something else to adjust (remember, think about many times before opening unuseful discussions...).
Try always to remember that we're trying to have FUN. The needing of adjustment is born from the desire of fielding units we just don't play like they are now.

If we all agree to the suggested changes, we can ask for an official FAQ. That's the power of democracy!  ;)

Offline Buzzu

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Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2015, 02:30:33 PM »
I forgot a very important one:

6) Orc alchemist
Adding the limit of "one every 1000 AP" as any other magician in the game.

Offline Buzzu

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Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2015, 02:19:23 PM »
Hey... not all together, guys!  :-[

I thought this was something to share and discuss together... am I the only one to ask for some adjustment? I don't think so...  :-\

Anyway: of all the ones listed above, I'd be happy even if only the 1) and 3) would be fixed.
Headhunters and berserkers.
The other ones are less important.

Hope this helps.

Cheers.

Offline Jr_Boyd

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Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2015, 08:39:19 AM »
1) I like both but I think berserk would be cool

2) All my books show Goblin spearmen at 16 points

3) I like three actions better than an extra wound. Extra wound should be for heroes and big models.

4) I don't agree on this one, most mounted war band the figures cost 60-80 pts each. So to have three models it cost 180 - 240 pts. Five assault warriors are 232 puts, Four Desert warriors 180 puts and they don't have the movement or extra attacks a mounted model does.

5) Agree MV 3 both

Offline Buzzu

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Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2015, 11:25:39 AM »
You're right. It's 16 AP for the spearmen. I don't know why I was sure they were cheaper. Sorry  :P

Thanks for the rest.

BTW... what about 6)?

Offline Jr_Boyd

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Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2015, 01:13:58 PM »
I was looking and i could not find anywhere that says only one mage per 1000. I know you are correct on this but is that a correction in print somewhere? Can you point me to where it says that? As far as the Alchemist he is not nearly as offensive as a mage he is more of a healer who has gadgets. Fire Bomb is very unreliable and more can go wrong than right and wound Transfer is one of his most threatening abilities and if they have any leadership easy to avoid. I am on the fence on this one.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2015, 02:06:00 PM by Jr_Boyd »

Offline Buzzu

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Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2015, 02:21:14 PM »
Probably you never played with an opponent who puts on the field three alchimists to resurrect and heal an ogre mirmidon bull cavalry or an ogre deathseeker... making them almost immortal.

Offline joshuaslater

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Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2015, 12:17:24 PM »
My regular opponent fields two alchemists almost all the time.  The limit on most other spellcasters in the game to one per 1000 points was never applied to the Alchemist.  I'm pretty sure the Swamp Goblin Headhunters are overpriced for the points.  I'll see if I can run the points cost by Thom and see how much.
May the Dark Lords of Lead-Free Pewter smile kindly upon you.

Homebase: Philadelphia, PA

Offline Buzzu

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Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2015, 03:57:27 AM »
Thank you man.  ;)

Offline joshuaslater

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Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2015, 12:24:16 PM »
I've been playtesting the Headhunters with a two point reduction in cost.  It feels right, and they are okay to field.  The spearmen are 11 points, leader 13.   Heavy spearmen are 20, leader 22.  Try these numbers and post your findings.
May the Dark Lords of Lead-Free Pewter smile kindly upon you.

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Offline Buzzu

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Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2015, 04:05:49 AM »
Well... I'll gladly try these new costs. At least for the spearmen (I don't use the heavy spearmen, I prefer to give a normal spearmen waband the equivalent bonuses through standard and drum, adding a novice shaman. It costs the same).

But, regarding headhunters, the matter was not about price. The matter is that I can see no tactic reasonable use of this unit. That's why me and Kvaerne and Boyd suggested to give them the berserker ability. This could change them a lot. They would became a unit of impact, charging and delivering great damage. And I was going to pay them more, if boosted up with this ability.
To tell you the truth, I'm not so pleased to pay them a little less if I can see no use for them in the army. I would prefere to pay them more but with a right impact on the field.

You told you tried them in game and you felt ok. Can I ask you how you used them? To do what?

Thank you so much, btw.

Offline joshuaslater

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Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2015, 01:14:57 PM »
I will post a lot more on all of thoughts about the Swamp Goblins in time.  For now, I think of the Headhunters as similar to the SoK Hearthguard.  They do a little less damage, and have less armor, but the principle is the same.  They hit harder than any of the spearmen, and odds are decent they will do that if you move them behind terrain/cover or behind a better protected unit against missiles. 

I will be running them again Monday night, and will continue the discussion.
May the Dark Lords of Lead-Free Pewter smile kindly upon you.

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Offline Buzzu

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Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2015, 03:35:37 AM »
Today I'll test a goblin army including spearmens with your lowered price (I don't use heavy spearmen) and the headhunters like I suggested:

36 pts each,
33 pts leader

60 pts hero.

BUT they all have the berserk ability.

I'll let you know how they work.

Stay tuned.

Offline Buzzu

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Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2015, 02:01:09 AM »
Ok. I tried on a test game the following display:

FIRSTBORN army 1000pts

Chronomancer with accelerate
Repulsar marksman
Repulsar knight
5 crossbowmen + leader
4 archers + leader
4 swordsmen + greatswordman + leader + standard bearer (+1 strenght)
4 iron guards

GOBLIN ARMY 999pts (I considered the spearmen at 11pts each and leader at 13; and the headhunters at 36 each with leader at 33 and hero at 60, but all of them with the berserker ability).

5 spearmen + leader + novice shaman (power blowpipe)
5 spearmen + leader + novice shaman (power blowpipe)
4 headhunters + leader + standard bearer (-1 def)
4 headhunters + leader + standard bearer (-2RC)
Headhunter hero
2 hunting spiders + novice shaman (power blowpipe).
4 webmasters + leader.


The test was to check the efficiency of the headhunters set like above.

Well... they REALLY work. Lowering down the price of the spearmen allows more room for elite pieces.

I lost, but the firstborn had only 5 pieces left; three crossbowmen (two of them sticked prone in a web), a panicked archer and the repulsar (with two wounds).

Covering the headhunters from ranged attack with the spearmen, when they get into melee they break really hard. I deleted the iron guard.

I really think they should be fixed like that. Same cost of a mantis guard, different role. And the hero, with a berserker ability, is something to really worry about for his enemies...

Try them!
« Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 04:04:42 AM by Buzzu »

Offline Jr_Boyd

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Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2015, 09:41:29 AM »
No pictures of the fight?  :'(