Find me a cost! (Again!) Antriders revised...

[Buzzu]

Hy everybody!

I'm here with another challenge for you game sistem experts.

Time ago, I created a new unit for the swamp goblins. They were called the Antriders. They were made by a giant ant with a blowpiper on the back.
Briefly, they had some special abilities similar to the hunting spiders (drag the foe away...) and the shooter could shoot in cc but had no melee attack.
After a long and nice discussion, Mr Talamini in person gave the price of 61 A.P.
I was extremely pleased about that.

Now, I changed some minis in my setting, and the proxies I used for the antriders are no more good beside the others.
Moreover, the piece was nice, but of little use in battle. If I needed someone able to drag, a spider was cheaper and more versatile.

So, having reduced a little the size of the riders, I imagined now something as written below...
More simple to use, a little reduced in some stats, but with a nice offensive impact.
Just read the stats and give your opinion: how much should it cost?

Remember that 1) Drone riders are 75 points each, but they are flyers and they have a residual damage!
2) A double mounted kutara costs 80 A.P., and it's SOMETHING more!
The old antrider was set, as I told, at 61 A.P. But now I removed the dragging ability and lowered some values, even if I added a rider.
Here are the stats: I'm waiting for your opinions!

ANTRIDERS (2-6 warband):
        Rider: CC 11 RC 9 PW 0 LD  11 AC 2  ST 3
    Shooter: CC  9 RC 11 PW 0 LD 11 AC 2  ST 3
           Ant: CC 11 RC 8   PW 0 LD 10 AC 2  ST 8  
Combined: W 2  MV 5 AR 18 DEF 0 D 3 A.P. ??

Natural Attack (1x) Bite: damage 9
Rider is equipped with a chitin machete, total dam 4(x2) and a shield
Shooter is equipped with a chitin short bow dam 4(x2) (5-10-15) (Same stats of a blowpipe; the mini has a bow…)
Special rules: Mounted troop, Scale (as climb but with normal movement), Jungle warrior, Immune to fear and Outmaneuver. No bonus for charge. The shooter can shoot to models in cc with the ant.

[Buzzu]

C'mon guys... don't be shy... this silence is unnatural from you!

Just say your opinion... how much should a piece like this cost?
Considering everything, and comparing them to other mounted pieces (and mounted wbs) I think they should be something between 65 and 70.

Don't consider too much the outmaneuver ability: they cannot hide.

Anyone?

[Jr_Boyd]

Well, just looking at this quickly and comparing it to known units - I don't have a scientific way of doing it. Comparing it to a Sential, Drone, Ripper archer, Kurtara I would say you are pushing 70 points maybe a little higher. The fact that you are making a unit and not an individual gives it a little more potency in my opinion.

i would not have a problem with 70 points

When i get a few minutes I will dig into it and see if I can come up with a more defendable point value

[joshuaslater]

I would price it at 75.  It may not be a flyer like the drones, or have residual damage, but the scale and outmaneuver would be expensive.  I will take a closer look at this and try to run it by Thom.  I had him look at the Swamp goblin spearmen and heavy spearmen because they were priced wrong in the book.

[Buzzu]

Goblin spearmen and heavy spearmen are priced wrong? That's interesting. But I still continue to think that the worst priced units are the SoK berserkers...

[Horned God]

Basically antriders are Drones. Check, so they should cost basically what a drone is. Then you slapped Outmaneuver on them. With 2 wounds. Do they need Outmaneuver? Nope, and would they ever have been made officially like that? Nope. Since they are fast moving you dont' need Outmaneuver. But if you really really really want it. Look at the cost of Blowpipers and then a spearman, and then look at the cost of webmasters. Both of these units with Outmanever are weaker than your spearman overall in Close Combat. Drones are nice due to the Sting and they can move/fire as mounted troops.

Outmaneuver is or should be a percentage of the overall cost of a model. Say it is 25%, then if Blowpipers didn't have Outmaneuver they would be 25% less costly. Say your Antriders are 69 or 70 points. What is 25% of that? That would be the cost of adding Outmaneuver to the unit. 85 or 86 points is what i'd come out to. Then as a player you'd ask do you want to take Drones or pay a bit more and get the outmaneuver version of them.

Yes, that is nice to have and yes each one that dies will hurt you. Your buying a costly unit. 86 x 4 = 344 which is basically 1/3 of your 1000 point army. I would not care if you had Outmaneuver Antriders if I were your opponent. I know they could be effective and you could be simply sending me 344 Victory Points. Thank you. It is a gamble on your part.

[Buzzu]

Sorry, but I can't agree.

I think you never played with an army of low ranged missile troops if you think that outmanoeveur is something you don't need if you're fast.

Try to play a dozen of SOK warhounds (very fast) against a warband of elf archers, than you'll change your ideas.

84 for a warband member is fool. No one will ever play it unless playing a 3000 A.P. army, and even in that case he'd probably choose someone else to play in a greater number of elements. I don't think they are so strong, as written. A double mounted kutara is 84 points, and look at the stats! They cannot be compared to the drones too, because drones do fly. A flyer has no limitations given by terrain, and can make dive attacks, and drones have residual damage sting. Antriders have no bonus for charge, and no additional damage.

The idea of my antriders was different. I just wanted a troop able to outflank the enemy, to support blowpipers and webmasters while waiting for the rest of the army to come. And yes, they could be a nice target for the enemy shooters (they are big) but maybe this could distract them from the basic troops, which can have some bonus for the size, the shield, and a standard of concealement (for a total malus of -4).

To tell you the truth, I think that even 70 is a high price; but acceptable.
Anyway, the goblin army is costing too much in many ways. The tactic relevance of a headhunter, for instance, is still to discover, when you can get a mantis guard warrior for 3 points more.   

[Buzzu]

Since no more opinions have come, I think I will set my antriders at 70 A.P. (which I think is a high but acceptable cost) doing a pair of modifications.
Armor should be lowered from 18 to 16 (it's more in the goblin average values); the warband should be 2-4 (it's stupid to set a maximum of six with a price like this).
The driver has got a shield, as told. The driver sits just on the neck of the ant. So the shield does NOT give the def bonus (say it should be +1 and it's now on 0, if you prefer) but it GIVES the -1 malus to RC to shooters in the front arc of the ant (not from behind).

After a pair of tests, I'll say how they work. If you wanna try too, you're more than welcome.