Dwarves second edition too weak?

[joshuaslater]

I'll try your list in the next game.
Two things worry me:
 Have 4-band compared to 6 of the Devoute.
 Lack of a powerful hero.
List very interesting, I have to try it in a field with a lot of cover.
Soon the story result 

You have to use your speed and movement to take out each unit.  2 dusk warriors can be brought down easily.   Same with the big models.  The Risen move so slowly you can finish them last.  Force a panic check against the Jackals as soon as you can.

[Horned God]

I played in a tournament campaign as a very aggressive Dwarf player and fought a 2500 point battle a couple of times vs the Devout. The first battle I killed every single Devout and at the very end the only still surviving model was an Abyss Crawler, and it tunneled away. If I had been able to kill it (and it only had a couple wounds left) the entire 2500 point army would have been wiped out. Instead it escaped and I had to fight another battle. The player was able to regroup and raise a second army.

I found the Vulture Marksman very useful. Yes, I did use the impaler, but the second battle I chose not to. During the first battle my little vulture marksman actually took out a soulflayer and 4 demon wings after surviving an assault by those demonwings (I was very lucky with the dice). I rolled at least two 1's and got two auto-wounds on the Soulflayer. It took a couple rounds but my lone little marksman was like a super-dwarf. I was just really really lucky with the dice.

During the battle the devout player thought the dwarves were overpowered. They just have units that serve different purposes. If you want to move across and open area, use Run and models like Tusked Legion. Take a Fire Team with a unit like Horned Spearman. That combo rocked for me.

[Buzzu]

Raga, your list is cool but there's a mistake. There are four individuals (a flamer, two impalers, a talon lord) for two warbands. It can't be played like this.

[Raga]

Raga, your list is cool but there's a mistake. There are four individuals (a flamer, two impalers, a talon lord) for two warbands. It can't be played like this.

Sorry.
In 1st edition Flamer's structire is Warband. I had no clue that in 2nd edition it is different.

[Jr_Boyd]

Just out of curiosity, are you all in agreement then that the Impaler counts as a Hand held missile weapon? It takes two people to fire it and the Risen are only immune to Hand held missile weapons. I have always thought Impaler as more of a Billista or mobile Scorpion. If it is not considered hand held then that would change things a little wouldn't it.

[Raga]

Impaler could look like this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5d/Ancient_Mechanical_Artillery._Pic_01.jpg

They can still be immune to the Impaler.

[Jr_Boyd]

So, what we are saying is there are no missile weapons that are aren't hand held. Not to get to far off topic how about the summoned unit the Elven Crusher - Boulders? Hand held missile? Even taking this further what about a Viridian Lords axe it is thrown that could do some considerable damage - hand held? - same category as a javelin or throwing darts for that matter.

Not trying to spark a debate but arrows and bolts I agree but maybe a house rule on some of these heavier weapons might be appropriate and balancing. I think giving the Risen a total by on all missile weapons makes them a little too over the top. I like it, I own quite a few.

just my thoughts

[joshuaslater]

The missile weapons are addressed in the FAQ.  Heavy throwing spears, Impaler bolts, Viridian Lord axe will kill undead models.

[Jr_Boyd]

Well cool, you guys left poor Kvaerne hanging thinking the Impailer does not effect Risen.

Maybe that will help out his Dwarves.

[Horned God]

Here is what you do: Tusked clan has high armor and against his missiles you can run them up front as a mobile missile shield of sorts (and yes move from cover to cover.

Main problem are:
 Possession against totem ( LD 10  Cry ).
Dread against Totem ( LD 10  Cry ).
Skeletons immune throwing weapons along with jackal Crossbowmen who shoot on my dwarves. His Dusk realm Warriors are about equivalent to tusked dwarves. Dont' be afraid of them.

Use a keeper if you really don't like that warped lord with Possession. He has a high LD and right near combat, transform. You should have at least a unit of 6 Vulture X-bowmen, and I like a Vulture Marksman but if you really want, just take an Impaler for those Soulflayers. Basically your taking Vulture + Tusked clan. Darkstars can work and they aren't that expensive. I'd suggest a Darkstars + Dark Axes + one unit of Vulture X-bowmen, Vulture Marksman (or Impaler), Keeper, and I personally like the Horned Champion, but Talon Lord is cheap and effective. Alternatively, a Firethrower Team could be substituted for the Talon Lord.

[Buzzu]

Try this: Buzzu's choice 

Say your friend you'll play at 1000 AP next time. It's necessary to field what I suggest to you:

Dwarven army: 997 points.

You told your main troubles are given by possession, soul flayer, skeletons and archers.

Ok.

Blood Bone, main clan:

Flayers: 4x plus leader

Flayers: 4x plus leader
They are steadfast. Fear will not be a matter. Dread a lesser one.

Axemen: 4 plus leader. They are cheap and fill the rest of the melee, and they are immune to panic so RUN to the skeletons because they will get there or die. Or keep them close to the fire-thrower to protect it.

Fire-Thrower team. Use it as Raga suggested. On wait.

Keeper. You don't need to field a totem when you got a 15 LD keeper who can tranform himself into the totem when he wants...

Horned Ones, support clan: 40% of the army set, and they are a missile unit, so again it's 40% of the total amount:

 348 AP of Warshields (4+Musician with magic resistance, and leader).
- They got shield wall to resist against arrows, and magic resistance to face the possession and vortex and anything else. Field them and let the others beside. The leader has a 14 LD stat. They will fire at the soulflayer and crush the skeletos in melee with a DAM of 14. If your opponent is doing the smart tactic of placing hand held missile vulnerable pieces behind skeletons, remember that the hail of arrows is a template effect, and it can take targets from above...

Good luck.

[kvaerne]

I have to try.
I think is missing violent force of a totem, but it can work 

x Buzzu : se un giorno riusciamo a fare una partita, magari proviamo se funziona. ( io tengo i Devoti  )

[joshuaslater]

I've finally got my Horned Ones force working.  They're winning games.
5 axes and leader
5 axes and leader
4 spearmen and leader
keeper
horned ones hero
war torkha

It comes in at a little under 1000 points. 

[Horned God]

Before I gave some thought to making an Impaler similar to J. Boyd. (using a Bolt Thrower). I had made a couple before using different models but then this idea came to me:

How about just giving the Vulture Marksman Killing Stroke OR just making his Crossbow deal out x2 damage. If it does 12 damage then it does 12 x2, slightly less than the Impaler, and it does the same range as his normal Crossbow, though it could be raised three inches. Say a Crossbow does 21 inch range, it would then be 24 inches.
 (cuz 23 inches and +2 inches would be sort of odd, though I suppose +2 range could work)

Lastly, give the Vulture Marksman +1 Wound.

In 2e he had 2 wounds, and that would mean he has 3 wounds, (and if it is 1e it means he has 2 wounds)

Why? because by then doing this your eliminating the Impaler from the dwarven army list. Your saying I won't use/have access to the Impaler at all.

I don't find the impaler imbalanced. The purpose of it is to get wounds early on in the game and because once you get within 10 inches the model is essentially ineffective and purely defensive, and the fact you sunk 89 points (almost 100) into it means it is not really that big of a deal. It is suppose to put damage onto a Soulflayer or take out a players caster who stupidly left it on top of a hill in plain sight. Yes it does have that 40 inch range. Secondly, a purely dwarven force can also be a slow force if you take certain units so this is a way for a player to reach out as they slowly advance and deal some damage. Keep in mind many spells have long range, deal damage and deal template damage, and have things like LOS range so really it is not that out of wack with such other options.

Still, many might not have an Impaler, and so I thought how about just beef up the Vulture Marksman a bit and it eliminates any over the top element of the impaler but also eliminates that downside of it not being able to fire within 10 inches and only being defensive too.

Even if you don't add the +1 Wound, adding that x2 damage to its Crossbow I think is the essential addition. Yes, that means raising the vulture marksman cost a bit, but clearly it would make an already great and useful model into something even more great and useful.

That is what I was going to do. I have 2 marksman and 2 firstborn marksman and yes I like fielding them. So that means you'd face at least up to two marksman if you faced me.

The other thing I thought about was what if the Impaler was "Limit 1 per 1000 points'                                                                                             

[Buzzu]

Sorry, I lost myself somewhere on your reasoning... how can you boost a model???

Anyway, remember that the greatest difference between an impaler and a normal crossbow is that a crossbow is a hand held missile. Some units are immune to it. But an impaler is bigger, and the immunity above does not work. Yes, an impaler can cut down an undead.