Author Topic: OUTMANEUVER: a clarification needed.  (Read 2420 times)

Offline Buzzu

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OUTMANEUVER: a clarification needed.
« on: April 09, 2013, 11:24:35 AM »
Hy guys. It's a lot I'm not posting questions, but I'm back and ready to go  ;D

I need a clarification about the ability OUTMANEUVER, which is something fundamental in both the armyes I'm playing with: untamed and swamp goblins.

The ability is described on page 89. The last phrase is something not clear: "The models may be placed in LOS of enemy models as long as they are in cover".

The expression "as long as" is not clear. In Italian, we can translate it in two different ways, which are pointing toward two very different directions. It can be translated as:

1) The models can be placed in LOS of enemies BECAUSE they are in cover (they are hidden)...

OR

2) The models can be placed in LOS of enemies ONLY IF they are in cover (which means behind something).

Which is the correct one???

It's something radical for a correct use of my units, and something that will influence a lot the effective power of my shooters.

If I have my slingers with a range of 6-12-18, or even worst my blowpipers with a range of 5-10-15, and they have to be placed 12 inches away of enemy models (as stated in the ability description and because you cannot stay hidden at a shorter distance) AND behind a repair, in an open field this ability is completely unuseful. If they have to be at a minimum distance of 12 inches BUT they can be in an open field hidden, it's very different. They can be activated and shoot a cursed shot in face of the enemy, and this will make the expense of fielding them worth to be done (they cost 28 AP, the slingers, and 26 the blowpipers), considering that after this first strike they will do very little more than being cannon fodders in wait of the following units to come...

Please, help me with this.  :P

Offline Raga

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Re: OUTMANEUVER: a clarification needed.
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2013, 02:21:48 PM »
In my opinion point 2 is correct.
Let us drink to the power drink to the sound
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Offline Buzzu

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Re: OUTMANEUVER: a clarification needed.
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2013, 04:28:35 AM »
Damn... I asked to the english mothertongue who works at my school, and she told the meaning of this phrase is ONLY IF they are in cover, which means behind an obstacle.

This is an AWFUL thing.

Anyway, the question is: My unit is hidden. They start the game hidden. Even if they're in los, they should be hidden. Isn't it? So why this need of specify the situation in the rules?

Offline Raga

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Re: OUTMANEUVER: a clarification needed.
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2013, 08:10:44 AM »
I would interpret it as:
The unit starts the game hidden = they could start the game hidden in the deploment zone = they could hide in the safe distance from the enemy.
They additionally have outmanouver ability that means that they can infiltrate the enemy and start in any place on the battlefield (they do not need to start in their deployment zone)
You can place them anywhere outside enemy LOS, but if you place them in enemy LOS they need cover (they must use this cover to sneak to the enemy (in front of their eyes), or imagine that they were there much earlier but emerged from their hideout (the cover you are using) at the start of battle).
Let us drink to the power drink to the sound
Thunder and metal are shaking the ground
Drink to your brothers who are never to fall
We're brothers of metal here in the hall

Offline Buzzu

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Re: OUTMANEUVER: a clarification needed.
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2013, 12:51:37 AM »
This means that in an open field (the usual settong of my friends battles) I have another unuseful ability. They got archers, I loose. That's how it works  :-[

Offline Raga

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Re: OUTMANEUVER: a clarification needed.
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2013, 01:17:55 AM »
Change the setting of the battlefield.
Chronopia is pretty boring when you always play on "desert".
Use some unpassable terrain such as hills, large rocks, lakes. W used several A4 paper sheets painted green to place some dense forests (no LOS over 3 inches)
Sometimes we played a chain of battles Krosnos vs Stygians. First battle was on neutral ground, but second was in the homeland (Stygians defended on desert, Kronos on snow)
Use your imagination.
Let us drink to the power drink to the sound
Thunder and metal are shaking the ground
Drink to your brothers who are never to fall
We're brothers of metal here in the hall

Offline Horned God

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Re: OUTMANEUVER: a clarification needed.
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2013, 05:14:31 PM »
It is really not an interpretation.

Number 2 is right.

Normally you would place them out of LOS. If you want to place them in LOS, then they must be 'in cover'. Cover can be either soft or hard. That doesn't mean necessarily 'behind something'. You could, for example, a piece of terrain you designate as 'soft cover' forest piece. That means any model placed on that piece of terrain gains 'soft cover'. Thus if you put your Outmaneuver Blowpipers on it then they are in Soft cover, and thus you can put them in LOS of an enemy model.

Does that make sense?


Offline Raga

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Re: OUTMANEUVER: a clarification needed.
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2013, 09:38:08 PM »
Buzzu:
One more thing.
You must remember thet many people make this mistake: "cover" and hidden" are two different things.
"Being in cover" means ONLY behind an obstacle on in the forest.
Your unit can be in cover, can be hidden and can be both hidden and in cover (thay are more difficult to spot than in the open terrain).
Let us drink to the power drink to the sound
Thunder and metal are shaking the ground
Drink to your brothers who are never to fall
We're brothers of metal here in the hall

Offline Horned God

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Re: OUTMANEUVER: a clarification needed.
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2015, 08:34:25 PM »
In this case, may be within LOS only if in cover means you must place your Outmanuever unit out of LOS, but if Cover is available (ie the models within the unit that will be within LOS, must be able to claim either Light or Hard cover), if they cannot those models cannot be placed there.

Hidden, is a state in the game. If you are Hidden models are out of LOS. If your Hidden your not in LOS. That means the rule for Outmaneuver does not apply to you, but as such it means your starting off as a unit with Hidden status. It does say "Hidden models may begin the game Hidden".

We might think if you then place a model in LOS but they are hidden they are able to be seen, and that is not the case. Instead the Hidden unit must first be Spotted, and if so then the Hidden marker is removed. Both Webmasters and Blowpipers can do this. They have Hide and they can (as stated in their description) "May start the game Hidden". Outmanuever troops are the same as Infilitrate in Warzone and thus they are not placed at some later turn, like Para-Deploy would be or even Unseen Assailant like in Chronopia.

So if you place these units you can essentially place them within 12", and they start Hidden and that Hidden marker essentially hides them from LOS. If these units did not have Hide like that and the rules for Hide did not state you can start the game Hidden, then no they could not do that, and would thus ONLY be able to be within LOS IF and ONLY IF they started in cover, if not they would need to be placed out of LOS and most likely that'd mean more than 12" away from whatever target they are trying to start close to (preventing you from being effective with the unit initially). Fortunately, it does list them with Hide and they can do that.

« Last Edit: February 23, 2015, 07:54:53 PM by Horned God »

Offline Buzzu

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Re: OUTMANEUVER: a clarification needed.
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2015, 01:02:47 PM »
THANK YOU!!!!!!

This solves any discussion about it.