Author Topic: Some Questions  (Read 2022 times)

Offline warzoneD

  • Member Emeritus
  • *****
  • Posts: 1206
  • Karma: +73/-0
  • Ad Astra Per Aspera
Some Questions
« on: July 08, 2012, 10:19:17 PM »
Okay, it's been a while since I played...life, work, etc. 

Some issues came up, I didn't know if there were official rulings--- I searched the site and didn't find anything so...I figure I'd open it up to the High Warzone Council (you good people!)

Q1: PART 1- The Muawjihe power - Mad Marionette - Can you use this power on a unit that has already been activated? 

Q1: PART 2 - And does using the power on a non-activated unit render  it activated (and therefore unusable by the owning player for the rest of that game turn)?

Q2: Defiler Drop Pods - According to the para-deploy rules if a deploying model hits another model it is lost-- But the pod is a vehicle-sized object-- In our last game it landed on a Ducal Militia trooper-- We ruled it would flatten the trooper (LD test to jump away), but is there an official ruling? It just seems like an awful lot of points to lose if it hits a single mortal model.

Q3: Golem of Darkness-- Does his aura actually cause darkness, and make those within more difficult to hit?

Q4: The Muawjihe power - Wind of Insanity - How would this affect a vehicle? Or would it be an instant crew hit?

Battle Report and pics to follow...

Thnx!  :)

D

Offline micmellon

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 536
  • Karma: +21/-4
Re: Some Questions
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2012, 11:48:15 PM »
Q1: PART 1- The Muawjihe power - Mad Marionette - Can you use this power on a unit that has already been activated?  
No, in the description it clearly says: friendly, inactivated squad.

Q1: PART 2 - And does using the power on a non-activated unit render  it activated (and therefore unusable by the owning player for the rest of that game turn)?
Yes. A unit can only be used once a turn. The controlled unit cannot take wait actions. This precludes any nebulous combinations like the question which player have control over the wait actions.

Q2: Defiler Drop Pods - According to the para-deploy rules if a deploying model hits another model it is lost-- But the pod is a vehicle-sized object-- In our last game it landed on a Ducal Militia trooper-- We ruled it would flatten the trooper (LD test to jump away), but is there an official ruling? It just seems like an awful lot of points to lose if it hits a single mortal model.
I think that rule interpretation is not 100% correct. The Defiler Pods have no para-deploy SA and the special text says only: Drop Pod must select landing zone exactly as Para-deployed troops do. So the deviation rules apply but nothing more.
The more interesting part of your question is how to play the hit of a model on the ground. A Dive for Cover would be would be fair. If the model has no wait action I would play it similar like fall damage: maybe a DAM11x5 (6+SizexSize) would be realistic. I can only recommend discussing and solving this question before the game starts. Maybe it is ok to move the model just next to the pod, too.


Q3: Golem of Darkness-- Does his aura actually cause darkness, and make those within more difficult to hit?
No, but “..that extends six inches from the model. Any enemy inside the aura who wishes to target the user must resist the effect of this aura by passing a LD check…”

Q4: The Muawjihe power - Wind of Insanity - How would this affect a vehicle? Or would it be an instant crew hit?
The vehicle itself is not beast or mortal. The crew is mortal but regarding the rules you can only attack the vehicle never the crew (as an example it is impossible to hit the crew if an open vehicle). I would say the vehicle and the crew is immune to the Wind of Insanity because I would handle it like environmental effects and gas attacks. There it is the same. The vehicles are immune the crew (in the theoretically case they would leave the vehicle are effected) is save because they are part of the vehicle.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 02:12:25 AM by micmellon »
It's just a flesh wound - Black Night

Offline Niart Gunn

  • Journeyman
  • *
  • Posts: 27
  • Karma: +2/-7
Re: Some Questions
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2012, 01:17:43 AM »
Q4: The Muawjihe power - Wind of Insanity - How would this affect a vehicle? Or would it be an instant crew hit?
The vehicle itself is not beast or mortal. The crew is mortal but regarding the rules you can only attack the vehicle never the crew (as an example it is impossible to hit the crew if an open vehicle). I would say the vehicle and the crew is immune to the Wind of Insanity because I would handle it like environmental effects and gas attacks. There it is the same. The vehicles are immune the crew (in the theoretically case they would leave the vehicle are effected) is save because they are part of the vehicle.

This is something that has always bugged me. Why are the crews of open vehicles immune to environmental hazards?
It just doesn't make sense. I mean, obviously a crew safe inside a Hurricane Walker, but a Hedgehog Necromower protects the driver from Gas Attacks? Really? My common sense is tingling.

I really think there should've been made another breakdown in the table "Chassis Configuration" on P. 90 between open and closed vehicles that explains how to deal with it on open vehicles.
Talking about that table, there is another thing I do not get about it: The rules tell us that there is "No effect from Gas or Environmental Hazards" but they also tell us "Only Templates affect the Vehicle, as the crews or troops are completely unaffected." Now this is very confusing I think. Does this mean that for example the CS-44 from a Shock Trooper Chem Sprayer Specialist, which does Environmental Damage, but also uses a template, can affect a vehicle or not?

PS: Sorry for kinda derailing this thread, but since the answers are pretty clear already, I thought it's better than opening a new one.

Offline micmellon

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 536
  • Karma: +21/-4
Re: Some Questions
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2012, 02:11:11 AM »
[This is something that has always bugged me. Why are the crews of open vehicles immune to environmental hazards?
It just doesn't make sense. I mean, obviously a crew safe inside a Hurricane Walker, but a Hedgehog Necromower protects the driver from Gas Attacks? Really? My common sense is tingling.

To get the true intention of the game development you have to ask T-Prime, but I think it was a solution to keep the game mechanism as simple as possible. To relate it to the 2nd edition there were plenty of rules for vehicle and very detailed.  Closed vehicles in the 2nd were extremely powerful and closed vehicles easy to stop (just kill the crew).
But the vehicles in UWZ are only support and not the main part of the game so you could say the pendulum is swinging into the other direction.





I really think there should've been made another breakdown in the table "Chassis Configuration" on P. 90 between open and closed vehicles that explains how to deal with it on open vehicles.
Talking about that table, there is another thing I do not get about it: The rules tell us that there is "No effect from Gas or Environmental Hazards" but they also tell us "Only Templates affect the Vehicle, as the crews or troops are completely unaffected." Now this is very confusing I think. Does this mean that for example the CS-44 from a Shock Trooper Chem Sprayer Specialist, which does Environmental Damage, but also uses a template, can affect a vehicle or not?


This is a little confusing but I will try to explain: The Environment classification of the weapon is for now most of the time just fluff. There were a time of discussion during the game development to give certain model types and armories certain weak spots (mentioned somewhere in the forum). There a only a few spots in the game where you can find the game mechanism like the Dragonswill Gun against A.I.s or Vulkans are vulnerable to radiant weapons.
Vehicles are immune to gas attacks, to ATS damage and to environmental effects (except the general effects) but they are effected by environmental weapons with normal damage like chemical sprayers.

I hope this will help.
It's just a flesh wound - Black Night

Offline Niart Gunn

  • Journeyman
  • *
  • Posts: 27
  • Karma: +2/-7
Re: Some Questions
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2012, 02:42:44 AM »
To get the true intention of the game development you have to ask T-Prime, but I think it was a solution to keep the game mechanism as simple as possible. To relate it to the 2nd edition there were plenty of rules for vehicle and very detailed.  Closed vehicles in the 2nd were extremely powerful and closed vehicles easy to stop (just kill the crew).
But the vehicles in UWZ are only support and not the main part of the game so you could say the pendulum is swinging into the other direction.

Fair enough. I guess it's all in balance and stuff, but i really would've wished for some differences between open and closed vehicles, at least regarding said environmental hazards (as well as weapons).


This is a little confusing but I will try to explain: The Environment classification of the weapon is for now most of the time just fluff. There were a time of discussion during the game development to give certain model types and armories certain weak spots (mentioned somewhere in the forum). There a only a few spots in the game where you can find the game mechanism like the Dragonswill Gun against A.I.s or Vulkans are vulnerable to radiant weapons.
Vehicles are immune to gas attacks, to ATS damage and to environmental effects (except the general effects) but they are effected by environmental weapons with normal damage like chemical sprayers.

I hope this will help.


Now this is confusing me even more. According to P.121 Environmental Weapons are declared as follows: "Weapons with this Weapon Effect have some kind of radiation, bacterial or chemical make-up that is highly toxic [...]. Each environmental hazard has an Attack Strength (or ATS) that represents the number that the affected model must roll under to avoid the effects of the hazard."
The way I understand this, is that weapons with the environmental designation in brackets don't do damage as normal, but rather have the ATS  you mentioned in the DM column on a weapon's profile. This obviously messes up the immunity thing again, because most of the environmental weapons are indeed template weapons.
Now, the way you are explaining this to me, environmental weapons should do damage like normal, including the armor roll and not interacting with the Survival Training SA at all. But in that case, why does the Weapons Values section describe the ATS rating? Also, maybe more importantly, why would thrown G-550 Gas Grenades work any differently from VX Nerve Gas Shell support munitions (and be immensely more powerful than AP Grenades at that)?

Offline dmcgee1

  • Board Member
  • Administrator
  • Member Emeritus
  • *****
  • Posts: 3177
  • Karma: +146/-7
  • Ask away!
Re: Some Questions
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2012, 03:45:33 PM »
micmellon, forgive my colorblindness, but the color you've chosen to represent your answering of WZD's questions plays havoc with my eyes.  I fear I must ask that you change the color to something (almot anything else), please. ;D (try to avoid Prime's yellow-green; he's not a fan of others' use of it)

As for micmellon's answers, I will verify/clarify/nullify as soon as the epileptic seizure stops.:'(
« Last Edit: July 09, 2012, 03:47:28 PM by dmcgee1 »
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline micmellon

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 536
  • Karma: +21/-4
Re: Some Questions
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2012, 02:25:16 AM »
I hope this helps!

Sorry somehow I was able to confuse you. I'm talented in this.

I will try to explain my point with examples:

vehicles are immune to weapon like:
AG-188 Sandman Missile (ATS 10)
Pestilence Plague Gate
Void Taint
Extreme Wind Chill (ATS 15)
Poison Gases

vehicles are NOT immune to weapons like:
CS-44 Chemical sprayer, CSS-100 Chemical Sprayer and Demonbreath Chemical Sprayer
It's just a flesh wound - Black Night

Offline Niart Gunn

  • Journeyman
  • *
  • Posts: 27
  • Karma: +2/-7
Re: Some Questions
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2012, 03:33:44 AM »
I still fail to see the difference between those :S

Does that mean I am completely misinterpreting the rules if I think the CS-44 etc. have an ATS too instead of normal Damage?
I'd guess that's the case, and honestly it makes me a little sad that the Chemical Sprayers seem to be Flamethrowers with another name (and no radiant damage).

And don't worry about confusing me, the UWZ rulebook actually does that better than you. The make-up of the text is very unclear and it doesn't manage to keep a consistent terminology, which is about the most important thing for a rulebook imo. Don't get me wrong, I love the actual rules, but the book is just terribly messy.

Offline micmellon

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 536
  • Karma: +21/-4
Re: Some Questions
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2012, 04:50:12 AM »
Oh I learned it the hard way, too.
It's just a flesh wound - Black Night