Author Topic: Spot and Stealth  (Read 6966 times)

Offline micmellon

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Spot and Stealth
« on: December 12, 2011, 11:33:49 AM »
Just imagine the following situation: Two Wolfbane Commandos are sneaking up (in stealth) to an Infantry Colonel.
The Colonel wants to spot the two squads. How many (successful) spot checks he has to make to see both squads?

I think two checks are necessary. To spot a stealth unit is not such an easy think over all.
If the first check is a perfect I can imagine that in this case he can see all stealth units in LD distance.
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Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Spot and Stealth
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2011, 01:30:11 PM »
I do not understand if this is a question or a commentary.

The rules for Spotting are rather clear (including the FAQ).  Please, clarify; thanks.
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline micmellon

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Re: Spot and Stealth
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2011, 03:32:57 AM »
The question is quite simple.

Is it necessary to spot each stealth unit in a single spot action?
Or is it possible to spot all stealth units in one spot action?

When I read all the rules about spot and I exchange the word model with unit (like it clarified in the forum discussions) I get the feeling that it is necessary to make a spot action for each stealth unit.
It is just the feeling I get when I read the rules. But I would like to have a confirmation if I’m right or wrong.

I am not a native English speaker. Maybe I miss something obvious.
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Offline luckyone

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Re: Spot and Stealth
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2011, 09:27:45 AM »
I believe it is necessary to spot one model at a time. If successful the entire squad becomes revealed (if applicable). So if there are two units within your leadership (modifiers included) then you have to spend at least two actions (one for each) to spot them.

Subsequent spot checks are covered by the rules but apply to each model/squad.

Obviously not official yet.

Hope this helps.

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Offline micmellon

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Re: Spot and Stealth
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2011, 11:07:09 AM »
Thank you! Yes, this helps a lot.

It would be nice, if somebody of the FAQ-Team will confirm it.
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Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Spot and Stealth
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2011, 03:35:33 AM »
Tim's example is not correct.  His example mentions "models."  If the unit which has Stealth has, already, been placed on the board as models (not a unit card), then they are, already, revealed; they cannot re-enter Stealth after being revealed.

In order to spot a "unit" ("unit" is synonymous with "model" only when the unit is comprised of only one model, such as an individual), one must expend an Action to perform a Leadership check.  Success indicates that the stealthy unit is spotted and revealed, and remains so for the rest of the game.  Failure indicates that the unit remains in Stealth mode.  If the Stealth unit voluntarily reveals itself (moving faster than half its Move vale, attacking, etc.), it remains revealed for the rest of the game.  At no point may a unit which has the Special Bility: Stealth "x" re-enter Stalth mode once it has been revealed.

Each unit that is in Stealth mode must be Spotted independently from another unit with Stealth; in other words, if a model performs a Spot Check, it may not reveal more than one unit per attempt.

Does this clarify it?
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline micmellon

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Re: Spot and Stealth
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2011, 04:42:36 AM »
Yes, thank you!
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Offline micmellon

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Re: Spot and Stealth
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2011, 12:08:45 PM »
After reading the posts about stealth I have one more question:

How does it work in the case a stealth squad is already revealed but still in stealth. This can happen.

(As an example: A Colonel spots a Wolfbane squad with his last action. Then a Trencher squad with a sniper kills the Colonel. Then the models are on the field but they are still in stealth.)

The next opponent unit wants to spot the stealth squad. So they have to spot a model like it is mentioned in the rules. Do they have to spot know each single model or is it enough to spot one model to shoot afterwards the whole stealth squad?
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Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Spot and Stealth
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2011, 05:22:11 PM »
Once a model/unit is revealed, it is revealed to all; it can never re-enter Stealth, and never needs to be Spotted by another model(s) - it is permanently and irrevocably revealed.

Nowhere in the rules does it state that a model with Stealth is only revealed to the model(s) which Spotted it(them).

Your example, therefore, is moot.  It cannot happen.

Does this clarify it?
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline micmellon

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Re: Spot and Stealth
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2011, 12:19:02 AM »
Quote
If successful, any model in the Squad that passed the Spot Check, or any other Squad Given Orders by the spotting model, may act upon the formerly Concealed model.  Friendly models separate from the Spotting model's Squad or outside the range of a Give Orders command cannot act upon the Concealed model, until they also Spot it.

Your statement doesn't fit to this one from the rule book (6.2.7). So you are rewriting the rule book now? I think we and the FAQ Team should interpret the rules of the rule book and not drop some rules and invent new ones. Sorry, but I cannot agree.

Don't get me wrong I am not upset or angry. I just don't agree and think the FAQ Team was until now not willing to rewrite rules and was just changing small typos. They should not start now to change this. Especially when I remember a lot of FAQ Team answers in the last time like this:

Quote
This has been answered.  Reading, "unless FAQ'd, later," as, "This is not yet resolved," is similar to saying, "This game will never evolve past 1st Ed., unless there is a 2nd ed. or a complete re-write, or is discussed ad infinitum in the forums until I read an answer with which I agree."

Forgive my snarkiness, but I cannot clarify, further.  I added the "unless FAQ'd, later" disclaimer as a way of saying that it is entirely possible that this might change at some future date based upon user input and designers' intent.

Please think one more time about my question and maybe you will find a different answer. Thank you!
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Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Spot and Stealth
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2011, 03:12:35 AM »
Micmellon, I disagree.

One cannot simply take one particular paragraph from the rules without considering the whole body of the rules.

On page 80, Stealth is explicitly explained; "Once revealed, they remain so for the remainder of the game."

Please, understand that I a not rewriting rules or trying to make the rules bend to my interpretation.  It is what it is.  Stalk (and Lurk) work differently with regard to being able to return to a state of concealment.

The rule is analogous to Spotting a Unit Card that does not have the Stealth Special Ability; once the card is successfully Spotted, all enemy units may see the unit, the models are placed on the board, and remain "Spotted" for the remainder of the game.  The Stealth Special Ability simply allows a unit to remain concealed past their inital activation, while a normal unit would be revealed simply by Activating.  Further, Stealth makes that Spotting attempt much more difficult to pass.

I am unsure how one would differentiate between which units could see a formerly concealed unit, and which would still need to Spot it.

Further, this issue has actually been discussed by the FAQ Team along with the Big Kahuna, himself, and we are all in agreement on this.  No one is rewriting rules in this instance.
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline micmellon

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Re: Spot and Stealth
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2011, 04:10:59 AM »
At least we play so far without ignoring this paragraph and we are able to track who can see the stealth unit and who has still to spot them. It is a whole paragraph and not a single letter or word so it is unlikely a typo.
The paragraph is in my opinion not a conflict to the rest of the rules. It is possible to be revealed to one unit and be still in stealth to the rest of the board. If you want to say a model is revealed at the point when the unit card will be exchanged against the model it gets tricky with stalk.

When I follow your interpretation of stalk, (stealth, and revealed models) then I have to exchange the model(s) back to a unit card one more time when they reenter stalk. Otherwise they would be still revealed and then everybody can see them.

This sounds not very consequent to me because this will not be done by anybody. I really don’t think so.

Any way in most cases it happens short after a spot action anyway that the squad will reveal themselves to charge an enemy or to move faster on safe ground because it is not safe to move slowly in stealth when somebody can shoot you.

Quote
On page 80, Stealth is explicitly explained; "Once revealed, they remain so for the remainder of the game."
This sentence tells me only that they cannot reenter stealth and nothing more. But this was never questioned and everybody agrees to this.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2011, 04:27:53 AM by micmellon »
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Offline dane

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Re: Spot and Stealth
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2011, 06:07:20 AM »
Not to blow sunshine on anybody, but I had to note something.

Still proud about the attitudes and actions of this crew. In any country. I have been part and parcel of hundreds of arguments (not an exaggeration) about other games rules, and when I found this game, I found a different culture. The un-named games where permeated by rules that engendered argument because of how they where created. I still can enjoy those games, but more with friends than strangers, because all the "foibles" had been worked out. Gaming with a stranger can be interesting, good if they are about the game more than the winning, bad if otherwise.

What I love about this system is that it supports this kind of banter. It has a logical and balanced core, that you can adjust or debate logically, and the more you know about the game the more the rules make sense.

I checked the house rules from across the pond, and they where fun and understandable, If I bumped into any of those players I would play them with those "house rules" just to have fun, cause so long as everyone is on the same page, it's the same game.

Even though you guys might think some snark is going on, you are all being pretty civil, a good representation of this culture. As much as it looked like a little heat was building, it is still a warm breeze compared to the other gaming groups.

I know, a useless intermission during a rules debate. I honestly think though it shines a good light on the lot of our community.

Hope someday to play a few of the guys from across the pond! Be well all!

William
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Offline micmellon

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Re: Spot and Stealth
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2011, 06:22:33 AM »
Dane/William, when ever you hit German ground you are invited to cross the blades with us and to fire some bullets across the table  :)
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Offline Bagomba

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Re: Spot and Stealth
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2011, 12:28:42 PM »
P 42 6.2.7

... or any other squad given order by the spotting model, may act upon the formerly Concealed model...
why should i give order to act upon a concealed model, if itīs already spotted ( and therfore revealed )

... Friendly models seperate from the spotting model squad or outside the range of a Give orders cannot act....
in your opinion they can act because the stealth unit is revealed. doesnīt make sense to me, sorry....

They are in front of me, beside and behind me....
They canīt escape
ATTTAAACK !!!!!