Stand fast vs. Leap?

[joshuaslater]

Just for the record.  I know you can't countercharge a leap, but can you stand fast?  I would love to see this in print.  We've been playing it where a model can stand fast, otherwise the leapin' lizards Stygian would have the jump (bad pun, I know) all the time.  Break it down for me.  Cheers.

[Nikodemus]

I know this has been discussed before, but can not remember the result..

But I think only brace cancels out leap, no other charge reactions (countercharge or stand fast) are allowed.
Otherwise the stygian warriors would be way to pricey...

YMMV

Marc

[joshuaslater]

It's a little grey in this area, yo.  I really would like it clarified from EE too.  I would think that it would be unrealistic to meet a leap with a countercharge, but if you're on wait, what's to say you can't hold your ground and hope your swing was timed to hit that lizard on the way in?  Our group has been allowing it, but this could change a lot if we've been doing it wrong. 

[Coil]

Leap goes before Stand Fast. The Stygians need that advantage.

It does not say it directly, but I think you can infer it from the way Stand Fast and Countercharge are written. Stand Fast follows the same rules as Countercharge when it comes to making LD tests to see who goes first (see page 62). The difference between the two is that you do not move and do not get the charge bonus.

/Andreas

[joshuaslater]

I just wanted to see it in print, because it is not written as clearly as it could be.  I'm hopin' Thom will devote a line to it in CM, just to keep rules lawyer types happy.  I agree with you, I think it would let the Stygian have a shot against my heavily armored Dwarves, but again, it would be better if the rules said it outright, and weren't "inferred."  You could easily make the argument that it infers you can ONLY stand fast against leap. 
Meaning you'll never get a charge bonus against the leapin' lizards in that situation.  I agree with you Coil, but I think I'll play Devil's advocate a little longer.  As for all y'all, leap in anytime, and let me know how you've been playing it.  Cheers.

[Coil]

I'm sure we can work it into the FAQ.

[joshuaslater]

Thanks Coil.  I'm not tryin' to be a curmudgeon, I just think it's important enough to put in the FAQ, and I remember you answering more than one question I've had on the old forum.  In fact, I'm slappin' the applaud icon on your karma right after I hit the post button.   

[dagorauk]

No no no no no...I remember this one, because it was myself and Lotus Eater who brought it up.

First, I'm almost positive that Leap supercedes Brace. I don't think Bracing works against either Leaping or Powerdiving models.
Second, if Leaping, the Leaping model ALWAYS gets the first attack.
Third, if the attacked model survives and was on Wait then it may attack the Leaping model, even if the Leaping model still has an action.

Leap (resolve) -> Wait Attack (resolve) -> Model that Leapt may then act again.

This question came about before because of a fight of Lotus Eater's Stygies going up against my Goddess Tribe SOK.

[Topkick]

I haven't faced Stygian in a while but I think Dag might be correct on this one. That is one of those that we need to review the old FAQ and see if the old debate made it in. Either that or check with Coki - he hasn't failed to produce anything we have needed so far. He reminds me of the Jim Hutton character, Peterson - the Scrounger in the John Wayne classic The Green Berets.

Addendum: Found the following in the Chronopia FAQ that Coki provided:
30) LEAP Does Run interact somehow with the Leap ability? I mean, can a Stygian Run and then Leap in the same round? A Stygian Leaps and attacks (charge) an enemy model. Can anyone (including the attacked model's allied models) use their wait action and countercharge the Stygian?

!*** A Stygian may run and then leap in the same round, yes. As it is currently, there is no way to use wait to countercharge a leap attack. Even nearby models not being attacked may not do so.

[joshuaslater]

Coki, is da man.  Thanks for puttin' it all down, Topkick, Dag, and everybody.  It definitely should be put down in black and white somewhere, just to put this one to bed. 

@Dagorauk,  I still think a braced spear should present a roll off situation with leap.  I know if I had a spear and some vicious critter was jumpin' at me, I'd be trying like hell to impale it before it got to me. 

I'll live by whatever the rules say, but this thread is showin' that Leap, Stand Fast off of Wait, and Brace could all use some tidying up.   It's own little section on the FAQ is all I'm pushin' for.

What's Thom doin' on a Friday, workin' or somethin'?  Not perusin' the forum when us die hards are hashin' this out?       Cheers.

[Nikodemus]

[quote ]
First, I'm almost positive that Leap supercedes Brace. I don't think Bracing works against either Leaping or Powerdiving models.

And I am almost positive that it doesn`t 

Brace superceeded leap in the first edition. Why should they change that and it makes more sense this way...

The leap specal ability only talks about countercharge (meaning the charge reactions on p62), no word about the special ability brace, whereas the brace ability cancels out any charge and in the leap description it says "counts as a charge".

Just my 2 cents...

[Coil]

It's not in the FAQ Topkick. I checked it and the rulebook before I posted.

There is no ruling in the posted FAQ on Leap vs Brace.

Dag, I see nothing in the text on Powerdive stating that it always get to strike first or ignores Brace. In fact the section on p.64 refers to the Charge/Countercharge rules.

/Andreas

[joshuaslater]

It's gettin' deep.  I'm glad you guys are on the new forum.  It would be nice to see all this resolved, especially before the Cerulean Mists goes to print. 

[Topkick]

I pulled that quote from the Chronopia FAQ posted on this forum by Coki. I vouch for nothing except that it is there. I leave it ot the FAQ Team to resolve the discrepency. Until then I will default to the FAQ that is posted to support my arguements. The quote covers any action used to counter a charge from wait as I read it. If I am misinterpreting it I apologize.

[joshuaslater]

You've nothin' to apologize for--this forum's here to hash these things out.