Sons of Kronos - tactics/unit comparison

[Oakwolf]

Hi here, just to spawn a little discussion.

I'm using a Sons of Kronos army list, technically of either Tribes of the Goddess or the Dawn.

I was wondering if there was any advantage in picking up Berserkers instead of Blade Maidens...try as i might, i can't seem to see a situation where the ladies come second.

Also...are there some read out on tactics for that army?

Having problems against the House of Helios...the Warrior of the Sun especially is a -real- thorn.

[aoi cobalt]

As far as I can tell, the Berzerkers make 2 attacks, and when berzerk, that's an 18 and a 14 to hit, with damage of 9 each (and another +1 to CC and Dam if they charge/counter). And if they kill their target, they drop out of berzerk, and lose the penalty to their Def.
Blade Maidens make one attack at 14, with damage of 13x2 (and another +1 to CC and Dam if they charge/counter).

Both have the same Def and almost the same armor (12 for berzerker and 13 for Blade Maiden), which means that the berzerker will be weaker being countercharged (only def -2 when berzerk).

In my opinion, the berzerker is a bit trickier to handle (because of the low def when berzerking), but they should work close to the same. The berzerker should almost always hit twice, but with makeable armor saves for the target. The Blade Maiden should hit, and when she does what she hit should fail it's armor save.

Of course, what it come down to is do you want to have a bunch of nude guys in your army, or a bunch of nude women? 

[Oakwolf]

Testing leads me to think that berzerkers are pretty much pointless in the SoK army...we have plenty of super-killy units already, all based on the high damage and great defense principle.

What makes them useless, in my mind, is that they have 1 wound and/or fail to damage when they hit. In fact they are the most pricy single-wound warband of the game, combined with the lowest armor. That is bound to make problems unless dice go all the way in your favor.

Their ideal target would be either super-cheap units (which will kill them on the next turn due to numbers) or...another bezerker.

Blade maidens, in comparison, will kill whatever they hit, unless it's a highly expensive individual or elite troop.

Anyway, i am quite puzzled at what to do against elite shooting. That warrior of the sun can dispatch an horrific amount of troops before i can do anything about it. We have undeads but not everyone plays the shadow tribe either.

[aoi cobalt]

No, that leads you to think that berzerkers are pointless in your SOK army.
Looking at the Shadow Tribe (which you don't play), they don't have any access to Blade Maidens. Berzerkers fill that gap.
And between a Blade Maiden's armor of 13 and a berzerker's armor of 12 is not much difference (they are both equally dead to a good hit).

As for the shooty elf, use cover and have your wyrd cast Call of the Dragon (you'll be playing Goddess tribe). Get a pack of Warhounds to cover your front.

[Oakwolf]

I didn't think of the shadow tribe's lack of maiden-like units. And they have The Unliving to shield the berzerkers to make it interesting.

Of course blade maidens die if hit, too, but unlike berzerkers, they rarely fail to kill what they hit and rarely loose their defense (feint).

I'll try to find a way to fit in the Hunter and warhounds...but they're not that cheap either.

[Firstborn]

Viridian Lords are better than either choice.

2 wounds, and they will kill ANYTHING in the game on the charge.

In 1st edition, Viridian Lords + Unliving are one of the strongest combos in SOK. Unliving are immune to missile fire, they move forward and screen
the Viridian Lords.

[Oakwolf]

They certainly are very good, no question asked, although 2nd edition prevents us from doing that combination.

I'd like to be enlightened on the usage of the Aeonbarr Warrior vs the Blade Maiden Champion. On paper at least, the maiden seems to overshadow the rider in almost all situations.

[Firstborn]

They certainly are very good, no question asked, although 2nd edition prevents us from doing that combination.

I'd like to be enlightened on the usage of the Aeonbarr Warrior vs the Blade Maiden Champion. On paper at least, the maiden seems to overshadow the rider in almost all situations.

No one is forcing you to play 2nd Edition.     This is one of the many reasons I believe 1st Edition is the better game.

I see no reason to take the Aeonbarr Horse Warrior over the Blade Maiden Champion. Movement breaks down to be the same between the two, and the Blade Maiden
Champion hits much harder. The 2nd Edition design team should have thought this thru more. The Aeonbarr Horse Warrior should be much faster, as it is mounted.

[joshuaslater]

A mounted troop with Leap comes in handy. 

[aoi cobalt]

I see no reason to take the Aeonbarr Horse Warrior over the Blade Maiden Champion. Movement breaks down to be the same between the two, and the Blade Maiden
Champion hits much harder. The 2nd Edition design team should have thought this thru more. The Aeonbarr Horse Warrior should be much faster, as it is mounted.

Movement is the same in distance, but the Aonbarr Horse Warrior does it in 2 actions to the Blade Maiden Champion's 3 actions. Which leaves the Aonbarr Warrior good for one more action.

Yes, the blade Maiden Champion does hit harder (dam 14x2) compared to the Aonbarr Warrior (dam 10x2). Of course, the x2 on both of them is the real killer.

[joshuaslater]

Book in hand.  With the Berserk and Ferocity, that's +6 to the CC on the charge for the first attack, and +2 for the secondary attack.  On your average troop with no DEF, you'll only miss if you twenty out!!!!


If you play your Berserkers and get them into CC to tie up two or three troops, then go Berserk on your intitiative, your chances of killing three enemy models in two actions is possible by splitting your attacks.

The Blade Maidens will only kill two, but do it most all the time.

Indomitable Will means they won't be possessed and kill your own, so that's another bonus.  Also, being able to field them in small units of two models, gives you an extra activation, so I think Berserkers are a good way to go.

[Oakwolf]

It's true, the aeonbarr warrior keeps an extra action, but as far as i understand, it is restricted to Give Orders or Rally. It does make him a better commander, but he will have issues against medium armor opponents.

Berserkers:Let's say you fight Elven Swordsmen.

Minimum berserker unit is 3 = that's 156 pts.  
Elven Swordsmen for that many points = 1 Leader, 8 Swordsmen (154pts).

That's 3 wounds for each 1, but we're also talking 18 actions vs 6.

I ran that combat four times last game and the berserkers never came out on top (they did get the charge and killed a few, but it takes 1 single hit to kill them, and out of 9-10 actions, it will happen 2-3 times per turn and even more if the berzerker used their rage). One occasion they made it to cause a panic test, but it was passed. Elven Swordsmen are very generic infantry units, so i am guessing berzerkers have more specific targets? They seem to be made to kill low armor, high value units, like Black Sisters, or other Sons of Kronos, actually.

Question on Multiple Attacker Bonus: Can you claim multiple attacker bonuses if your "assisting comrade" also touches the base of another enemy?  Say Swordsman A and B are both fighting a Berserker. Swordsman A attacks the Berserker. Swordsman B's base is also touching another enemy, so can he be counted for multiple combat bonus?.

[Raga]

Keep in mind that my perspective is based on 1st edition.

I'm not sure if anything is changed in 2nd edition, but you get bonus for every allied troop from the same squad touching the same model.

Example: one Beerseeker survived 3 charges - miracles happen (is surrounded by 3 enemy models). He gives the bonus for each other squadmate attacking these three enemies.

In 1st edition (I don't have the 2nd edition rulebook, but I think there are similarities) Sons of Kronos have 3 tribes.
(Translation may be not exact)
Shadow Tribe - Monarch and Unliving available, Mother spalls available, 1/3 of the army can be Devout
Dawn Tribe - Aonbarr Raider and Blade Maidens available, Naquad spells available, 1/3 of the army can be Firstborn
Goddes Tribe - all spells are available, all shadow and dawn troops available, only Goddes Tribe can field Viridian Lords and Chariots

In my opinion if you play Goddes Tribe just ignore Maidens and Beerseekers and choose Viridian Lords, if you play Dawn Tribe choose Blade Maidens but if you play Shadow Tribe choose Unliving as the shield and Beerseekers to follow.

Oakwolf: You compare Elven Swordsmen and Beerseekers, but you should take under consideration missile weapons that would affect them before they get into close combat. (Beerseekers are shielded by Unliving)

Aonbarr Raider and Monarch can spend anytime their free action for anything but Move and Wait so he can: move/charge, rally/give orders and move/charge again

[Oakwolf]

Thanks for the example, solved my question with multiple attackers.

It doesn't seem to be too different going from 1st to 2nd when it comes to army composition; the rules have stayed the same as you stated. From what i could see, there was some differences in the Defense statistic (Blade maidens went from -2 to -6), also if i remember well, having a 2-handed weapon incurred a penalty to defence.


I have a game planned for tonight, will see how it goes in light of what's written here.

a) The Aeonbarr warrior does seem to be a mobile tactician in very large games, so that you can give order and still move along with the warriors. That said i don't think this role can be played in normal battles, where you need to counter other individuals and the blade maiden champion can do this better.

b) Berserkers are pretty much aimed at the Shadow Tribe, given they do not have access to blade maidens and viridian lords. With 2 wounds and immunity to missile weapons, i agree that the unliving make a very good (if very slow) shield line for the berserkers, although hail of arrows from the elven longbowmen might circumvent that a bit to hit squishy elites behind.

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Unit comparison: Hearthguard vs Tribe warriors

I've had good results with Hearthguard, as they have respectable armor for their very good defence, skill, damage and point cost. They seem to be more effective than the Tribe Warriors, who strike me as odd with their barbed spears and swords, but perhaps i am missing something altogether.

[Raga]

Oakwolf:

Remember that you can field Necromancer who can accelerate the Unliving.
In 1st edition defender chooses Hail of Arrows targets (is it the same as in 2nd edition?), so Unliving can absorb most of Hail of Arrows potency.