Author Topic: 1st edition - wait  (Read 2486 times)

Offline Raga

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1st edition - wait
« on: September 30, 2010, 09:12:38 AM »
I have some doubts about the wait action.
There is almost avery situation decribed in Rulebook and DoW, but not every one.

As I understand sneak attack in Rulebook looks like this:
You must infiltrate into CC and then you may perform next action as close combat attack with bonuses for sneak attack

In DoW the rules were changed:
You don't have to infiltrate into cc to make a sneak attack, you have only to infiltrate to normal charge distance ie.
- Model A (3 actions and 3 move) is hidden and is about 5 inches from model B
- Infiltrates for one action (1,5 inch) - distance about 3,5 inches
- Infiltrates for second action (1,5 inch) - distance about 2 inches
- makes normal charge (but from hidden status) as 3rd action and receives additional bonuses
Please correct me if the example above is wrong (but I'm pretty sure that it is exactly as decribed in DoW)

If so Let's have situation:
- model A and B are not hidden and are waiting
- model C is hidden and has the initiative

Model C charges model A as in example above:
- can model A and B spot model C to make a parry roll?
- can model B shoot model C? (in description only model charged from hidden status is taken by suprise or maybe we could interpret it as all models are taken by suprise and cannot react?)

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Offline Raga

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Re: 1st edition - wait
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2010, 12:41:05 AM »
There is no response so I am giving my proposal:

Clarification:
Model has 180 degree LOS for offensive purposes (can attack, spot etc.)
Model has 360 degree LOS for defensive purposes (can parry, avoid attacks etc.)

Close Combat can be initiated two ways:
- Charge - full body tackle, +2 to CC and to Dam
- Sneak Attack - model must infiltrate into CC to gain additional +2 to CC and Dam, this attack cannot be parried

This makes a difference only to models without Commando Training

Example:
Sea Lion (jungle training, hidden and waiting) is in the forest.
Venusian Ranger (not hidden) enters his LOS.
Sea Lion has two close combat possibilities:
Charge - moves up to 3 inches
Sneak Attack - moves up to 1,5 inch

If he chooses Sneak Attack but the distance is greater, he cannot move more than his half movelent range (he misjudged the distance and is in plain sight) and all of the waiting enemies can react.

Model that is charged can choose to countercharge or shoot the attacker (is also able to parry).
While performing sneak attack, the model can be spotted as normal and countercharged or shot at (if spotted).
Let us drink to the power drink to the sound
Thunder and metal are shaking the ground
Drink to your brothers who are never to fall
We're brothers of metal here in the hall

Offline dmcgee1

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Re: 1st edition - wait
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2010, 08:44:14 AM »
I apologize if you were awaiting response from someone, however, most of us play UWZ - not 1st Ed. - therefore, many of us are not knowledgeable about 1st Ed.

That said, if you would like a UWZ perspective, I will give it.
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline Raga

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Re: 1st edition - wait
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2010, 10:59:45 PM »
You don't have to apologize. It's not your fault :)

I am old and conservative person. :P
I prefer to modify 1st edition (to make it balanced) than switch to UWZ (I could start playing 40k as well)

The UWZ perspective is very welcome because my intention is not sticking to the rules but make them logical and universal.
That is why I always give the example of situation I have doubts of.

The suggestions I expect should be based on your experience with editions you use - how such situation SHOULD look like.
I will use your suggestions for my purposes.

Let us drink to the power drink to the sound
Thunder and metal are shaking the ground
Drink to your brothers who are never to fall
We're brothers of metal here in the hall

Offline dmcgee1

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Re: 1st edition - wait
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2010, 03:33:17 AM »
From the UWZ perspective, then...

Wait is, simply, a reserved AC that may be used at any time - it does not, necessarily, have to be in direct response to the AC of an enemy model.

All models have 360 LOS, therefore, the model can use the AC (assuming that it has successfully passed an LD test) to perform a non-movement AC.  Attack AC cannot occur if the model would have to move, first, to be able to bring the target into the model's Fiing Arc (except Charge/Counter-charge, as these AC's are Attacks with the benefit of Movement).

If the model that is on Wait is the target of a Charge, there is no need to roll a LD test, at all, to use the AC to Counter-charge, to Brace for Charge or to Withdraw.
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline Raga

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Re: 1st edition - wait
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2010, 04:58:40 AM »
In 1st edition every model can hide and there are abilities:
Commando Training - model can move at full speed while hidden
Stealth - spotting model has penalty of -4 to LD

Can I assume that in UWZ
Stalk - is like Commando Training + Stealth in 1st edition?
Stealth - is like Stealth in 1st edition (with different modifiers of course)?

So lets repeat my question from UWZ point of wiev.

I have a model with stealth (3" movement) 2 inches from enemy model and I want to perform charge from concealment.
Do I have to move and charge as second action or can I charge directly?

When a model is target of charge from concealment, can the defender use its wait action to spot charging model (ie. to reduce its bonuses)?
If the model is spotted (if the answer for previous question is YES), can be shot by another waiting model?
« Last Edit: October 19, 2010, 05:01:34 AM by Raga »
Let us drink to the power drink to the sound
Thunder and metal are shaking the ground
Drink to your brothers who are never to fall
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Offline dmcgee1

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Re: 1st edition - wait
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2010, 02:05:00 PM »
You may Charge, directly (assuming the charging model is not Spotted).
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline Oakwolf

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Re: 1st edition - wait
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2010, 02:09:13 PM »
The systems work a bit differently as far as i understand UWZ, and i am not sure it transposes from one system to the other.

UWZ: Stalk is an elite version of stealth. The big thing is that the unit card is not revealed until spotted. There's no "hiding" in UWZ except during deployment, but some super stalkers can return to "unrevealed" status in the correct conditions.

Warzone: anyone can hide and infiltrate.

In the first edition, the problem comes with the following issue:

When is the hidden counter removed?
a) when the sneak attack is declared?
b) when the model reaches CC?

If the counter is removed as soon as the attack is declared, then there's no need for spotting, but the model needs to be in LOS to shoot. This would also allow counter-charges...besides, surprising a waiting opponent is kind of paradoxal.

If the counter is only removed once the model reaches CC, then spot checks would be in order before shots can be taken.

That's just my 2 cents as i sadly don't have the time to validate this with the books at hand.

Offline Raga

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Re: 1st edition - wait
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2010, 09:21:22 PM »
dmcgee1: You mean that penalty (unit has to move at half speed to maintain Stealth status) is disabled when charging?

Oakwolf: But you are right.

I have problem with such trivial thing.

Answer for your question is:
Hidden Marker is removed when model reaches CC - Rulebook
Hidden Marker is removed while declaring a charge - Dawn of War - new close combat rules (should override old rules)

If hidden counter is removed while declaring charge:
You make charge from hidden status, attack cannot be parried and (I assume no enemy model can react any way)
But it makes silly situation where model with commando training can charge from 6 inches (4 MV + Long Legs) and nobody can do a thing, but model with stealth (-4 to spot) infiltrates (at half speed at range about 4-5 inches - same distance) and every waiting model can spot it. (Charging is more sneaky than sneaking?)
It makes no difference for units with or without commando training (Stealth Stalk in UWZ) cause thay can charge from full movement range?
« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 01:01:03 AM by Raga »
Let us drink to the power drink to the sound
Thunder and metal are shaking the ground
Drink to your brothers who are never to fall
We're brothers of metal here in the hall

Offline dmcgee1

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Re: 1st edition - wait
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2010, 07:46:20 PM »
dmcgee1: You mean that penalty (unit has to move at half speed to maintain Stealth status) is disabled when charging?

In UWZ, once a model with the Stealth Special Ability Charges, performs any other non-Move Action, or Moves greater than half its MV, it is permanently revealed, and may not re-enter Stealth mode.  Therefore, if the model is, immediately prior to Charging, Concealed by way of Stealth (or other Special Ability), it may Attack from Concealment, but loses the benefits of Stealth, thereafter.  When it Attacks from Concealment, it may Charge at full MV, including any other bonuses, if applicable (i.e.: Enhanced Charge).
« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 07:50:21 PM by dmcgee1 »
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline Archer

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Re: 1st edition - wait
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2010, 07:16:11 AM »
dmcgee1: You mean that penalty (unit has to move at half speed to maintain Stealth status) is disabled when charging?

In UWZ, once a model with the Stealth Special Ability Charges, performs any other non-Move Action, or Moves greater than half its MV, it is permanently revealed, and may not re-enter Stealth mode.  Therefore, if the model is, immediately prior to Charging, Concealed by way of Stealth (or other Special Ability), it may Attack from Concealment, but loses the benefits of Stealth, thereafter.  When it Attacks from Concealment, it may Charge at full MV, including any other bonuses, if applicable (i.e.: Enhanced Charge).

As I recall, this is on the money.

I think there is a DL model that can reenter Stalk if out of LOS to any enemy.
John "Archer" Tinney

"Ready?"
"Why do your people always ask if someone is ready, just before you do something massively unwise?"
"Tradition."

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