Author Topic: 1st edition HMGs  (Read 3118 times)

Offline Raga

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1st edition HMGs
« on: September 19, 2010, 10:13:33 PM »
I know that 1st edition is for skirmish games that should be played on short distances and with loads of terrain blocking LOS.
We prefer playing battles on open terrain, with swamps, lakes, trenches etc. (hard covers not blocking LOS - Martian Campaign)
Starting distance between deployment zones is about 40-60 inches.
Sniper rifles without laser sight (laser sight does not work with heavy weapons and sniper rifles) and limitation to 4 actions (models cannot increase actions with special equipment and heroic abilities if they have 4 or more) are not a big problem.
The main problem is with HMGs.

This morning I got an idea and I would like to know your opinion. Is it logical and what situations I forgot to take under consideration?

Additional Rule:
- every weapon has additional range modifier: -x per 12 inches where x is weapon's damage multiplier (somewhat UWZ inspiration)

The rule above obviously would not work with weapons without damage multiplier, template weapons and range below 12 inches.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2010, 02:09:40 AM by Raga »
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Offline Oakwolf

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Re: 1st edition HMGs
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2010, 06:36:33 AM »
I really like how they solved the HMG problem in UWZ, so i think that's the best course of action.

If i follow your train of thought they'd loose a damage multiplier per 12". That's fine for a "concentrated shot", but what about burst fire? Does a x3 weapon lose the ability over 24"?


Offline Raga

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Re: 1st edition HMGs
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2010, 07:19:55 AM »
Ah, I didn't make it clear enough.
Heavy weapons would not loose its damage multiplier.
they would get -x to hit.

Nimrod: per 12 inches would get -3 to hit (it hax (x3) miltiplier, so over 36 inches it would have -15 to hit (normal -3 + additional -12)
Nazgaroth: would have -6 to hit over 24 inches
Charger: over 24 inches would have -8 ( normal -2 + additional -6)
Let us drink to the power drink to the sound
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Offline Oakwolf

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Re: 1st edition HMGs
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2010, 01:10:18 PM »
Ah, then i think the idea has merits, promoting a more aggressive gameplay in 1st edition, while not hampering close range fights.

I won't play until a little bit, so perhaps you could test it and report the results.


Offline master of muppets

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Re: 1st edition HMGs
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2010, 06:32:02 PM »
please tell me   whats wrong with hmgs in your opinion


we found that

units may only use 1 action to shoot per turn    units that are on wait may still shoot by passing a ld test and -2 to mw  ,and this is enough penalty to not overbalance to once a turn rule   units that may secondary attack or some such multi attack per action may still do so

we found that a hmg will line up to rake a squad it will burst fire them  mabey kill a guy prehap two  then get shot to ribbons if its still out in the open  as all troops should

we found that units with high ratefire have it but dont just kill everything

this is the 1ed expansion chronopia rules for shooting   and it works for warzone to

also we play with a standard range set 5-8 pistols 8-12 smg 12- 24 assult rifles/lmg/hmg 15-24 rocket launchers and snipers
yes i know it removes the small differences in guns range from the corps but it makes life easyier and the range mod and dam stay the same  also it makes hmgs a lot less of a handfull  

my group{gamers guild} found that this works best    
we play all sorts terrain types and game types  we found this blanket rule just works

what do you think?
« Last Edit: October 19, 2010, 07:01:44 PM by master of muppets »

Offline Raga

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Re: 1st edition HMGs
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2010, 11:49:30 PM »
I think that we (our group) would not participate in your tournament :)
You make warzone a melee game and some corporations become handicapped (Bauhaus, Cybertronic, Tribes of Earth)
Shooting requires LD test... well it might work in UWZ (stats of armies are balanced) but what about Cybertronic AIs?
You force every model capable wielding a heavy weapon to be equipped with Nimrod or Headbutts.
What about vehicles (especially flying ones)? They can also attack once?
Tough Dark Legion individuals (5-6 actions) with azogar (no point wasting points on ranged weapons) rule on tha batttlefield.

I changed my mind... I would gladly play with you if I could... to make you revise your rules. My armies would be like:
- only Wheel Templars of Ilian + Karak (for fluff)
- only Mirrormen followed by Eradicators with Gigadeath Chainrippers and Flamers
- only squads of Vakyries with Laura + Executioners
- only Banshies - High LD for spotting and safe airstrikes cause you have no weapon to shoot down the helicopter (30 inches)
- only swarms of Ashigaru and Samurais
- only Wolfbane Berserkers - their standards allow fielding army worth 3000 against 2000 (approximately)

If you think that rebalancing every weapon in 1st edition (adjusting costs, ranges, maybe damage etc.) is worth your time - I am really proud of you. But do it carefully.

I have a suggestion for you - switch to UWZ (I don't recommend 2nd edition) - it is much closer to your vision for warzone.
Let us drink to the power drink to the sound
Thunder and metal are shaking the ground
Drink to your brothers who are never to fall
We're brothers of metal here in the hall

Offline master of muppets

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Re: 1st edition HMGs
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2010, 02:50:01 AM »
i think you have misread what i have written
also i dont really use dark legion much so let me clarify

units may only spend 1ac out of three making ranged attacks
units may shoot from wait but it will require a ld test to do so and a penlty of-2 mw
if a unit gets a abilibilty such as x3 or secondary attack with range   then it may do so
this makes x2/3/4etc stlye weapons heavy hitters but stops them destroying a unit

so tecnicaly a unit may shoot twice once from normal actions then once again from wait with a penalty
cybertronic make a revelant check with same penalty

the helicopter is a bug ill give you that  but you just change 30 to 24 and its delt with

and no  close combat units still get cut to shreds but they at least get a chance this way
close combat troops may spend as many action as they wish in cc

also i cant see why standad range handicaps armyies because the weapons and range mods will still be different    and snipers and hmgs cant destroy units before any other weapon can be brought to useful ranges   and 24 cap just evens the feild a bit

we never use personalitys

stephan
« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 02:53:40 AM by master of muppets »

Offline Raga

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Re: 1st edition HMGs
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2010, 03:19:02 AM »
I changed my mind... I would gladly play with you if I could... to make you revise your rules. My armies would be like:
- only Wheel Templars of Ilian + Karak (for fluff)
- only Mirrormen followed by Eradicators with Gigadeath Chainrippers and Flamers
- only squads of Vakyries with Laura + Executioners
- only Banshies - High LD for spotting and safe airstrikes cause you have no weapon to shoot down the helicopter (30 inches)
- only swarms of Ashigaru and Samurais
- only Wolfbane Berserkers - their standards allow fielding army worth 3000 against 2000 (approximately)

I will explain it a bit more.
Templars - will tear every army to pieces because can be beamed just next to your deployment zone, have 2 wounds, ignoring wounds on 50% and automatically spot. Your restriction (1 shot per activation) makes their job trivial.
Mirrormen - same here, you will never have enough firepower to stop 3 wounds and 30 armor running 15 inches per activation at distance 30 inches
Valkyries - can Pain whole armis to death at unlimited range (LOS)
Ashigaru and Samurais - are safe at range 24+ inches and can Banzai Charge ant 15 inches per activation, they will swarm any army
Berserkers - same here, their number can be 2 times greater that opponents army and the only possibilty was to shoot them down from distance (24 inches is no distance for them)
Let us drink to the power drink to the sound
Thunder and metal are shaking the ground
Drink to your brothers who are never to fall
We're brothers of metal here in the hall