Author Topic: The Hellstorm SMG  (Read 2341 times)

Offline Topkick

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The Hellstorm SMG
« on: September 12, 2010, 02:52:19 PM »
More an observation than a question

After months of self-imposed exile to learn my new job and bond with the new family I rejoin the forum by imposing this daunting observation – The PC 606 Hellstorm SMG is the Reese’s Peanut Butter Cup of Warzone weapons. I don’t know if someone got an SMG in my auto-cannon or an auto-cannon in my SMG.

All kidding aside the weapon has 7 stat lines scattered throughout the book and only about half of them match. To make it worse none of the stat lines match the weapon’s description either. Unfortunately some really cool troop choices suffer from the discrepancies because no one wants to use a weapon that is so clearly broken.

I discovered this while assembling a Golden Lion force for my Imperial Army. So while adjusting to life in Wisconsin I have taken my spare time and devoted it to this weapon. I first identified the problem and then outlined a solution. Bear with me as I take you thru the process I used.

First as I said I had to identify the problem, so I went thru the entire book and checked the stat lines. About half match but as I said none match the weapon description. As described in the Cartel Armory on page 416 of the UWZ book (the only description I could find) the Hellstorm SMG fires 10mm explosive shells with the stopping power of a light auto-cannon at short ranges. It also states that the Hellstorm has a considerably slower rate of fire than other SMG’s and a tendency for the explosive rounds to react violently to jams. However none of the stat lines reflect these points.

Main Armory – pg 129
CC   PB   SR   MR   LR   ER   Dam   SA
-1   1/x2   0/x2   -1   --   --   10   AV 2

Nathan Parrish – Capitol pg 174
CC   PB   SR   MR   LR   ER   Dam   SA
-1   .5/x2   .5/x2   -1   --   --   10   See Chart

Kommandant – Bauhaus pg 205
CC   PB   SR   MR   LR   ER   Dam   SA
-1   1/x2   0/x2   -1   --   --   10   See Chart

Max Steiner – Bauhaus pg 206
CC   PB   SR   MR   LR   ER   Dam   SA
-1   1/x2   0/x2   -1   --   --   10   See Chart

Golden Lions – Imperial pg 263
CC   PB   SR   MR   LR   ER   Dam   SA
-1   1/x2   0/x2   -1   --   --   10   See Chart

Cartel Enforcer – Cartel pg 409
CC   PB   SR   MR   LR   ER   Dam   SA
-1   1/x2   0/x2   -1   --   --   9   --

Bauhaus Doomtrooper – Cartel pg 414
CC   PB   SR   MR   LR   ER   Dam   SA
-1   2/x2   0/x2   -1   --   --   9   --

All the other SMG’s have a x2 rate of fire and a +2 to hit except for The Sons of Rasputin’s Veslot SMG which is a +1 at PB and a +2 at SR.

As for damage, all the auto-cannons have a damage of 10/2 except for Cybertronic’s CAV 3800 which is 7/x2 The CAV 380 is usedby the Enhanced Chassuers and is essentially a back-up weapon to for his main weapon, the PI-4200 Incinerator.

The Hellstorm SMG clearly needs an overhaul and I have a proposal that is both consistent and brings the weapon into agreement with its description.

Hellstorm SMG Mk 1.1
CC   PB   SR   MR   LR   ER   Dam   SA
-1   2   1   -1   --   --   9/x2   see below

Special Abilities
1) AV 2
2) Explosive Jam – On a roll of 20 the weapon jams. The next shot is at -4. In addition, the player must immediately roll another d20. On a roll of 18-20 the weapon explodes doing damage 9/x2 to all figs under a small explosion template centered on the shooter.

Hellstorm SMG Mk 1.2
CC   PB   SR   MR   LR   ER   Dam   SA
-1   1/x2   0/x2   -1   --   --   8/x2   see below

Special Abilities
1) AV 2
2) Explosive Jam – On a roll of 20 the weapon jams. The next shot is at -4. In addition, the player must immediately roll another d20. On a roll of 18-20 the weapon explodes doing damage 9/x2 to all figs under a small explosion template centered on the shooter.

Please feel free to give me any feedback, positive or negative.  I’m looking forward to hearing what you all think.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2010, 06:12:51 AM by Topkick »
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Offline dmcgee1

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Re: The Hellstorm SMG
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2010, 05:03:34 AM »
Hi, Top.

First and foremost, it is always good to have someone of your experience and clear thought provide substance on these forums.  Thank you for that.

My "official" two cents:  The weapon is accurately described in the Main Armory on p. 129.  This is the stat line that should, "officially," be used for any instance in which it is included in a model's equipment.

That said, I am fine with the way that it is statted out on p. 129.  I do not see it as broken; powerful, yes - broken, no.

The examples you provided do not match my book.  My book shows the following:
(p 174) Nathan R. Parrish
PC-606 Hellstorm SMG (ballistic)
CC      PB        SR      MR        LR       ER       DM           SA
-1   0.5(x2)  0(x2)   -1         -       -       10      See Chart

(p 205) Kommandant
PC-606 Hellstorm SMG (ballistic)
CC      PB        SR      MR        LR       ER       DM           SA
-1   0.5(x2)  0(x2)   -1         -       -       10      See Chart

(p 206) Major Max Steiner
PC-606 Hellstorm SMG (ballistic)
CC      PB        SR      MR        LR       ER       DM           SA
-1   0.5(x2)  0(x2)   -1         -       -       10      See Chart

(p 263) Golden Lions (incl. Sgt and Demo Spec)
PC-606 Hellstorm SMG (ballistic)
CC      PB        SR      MR        LR       ER       DM           SA
-1   0.5(x2)  0(x2)   -1         -       -       10      See Chart

(p 409) Cartel Enforcer
PC-606 Hellstorm SMG (ballistic)
CC      PB        SR      MR        LR       ER       DM           SA
-1    2(x2)    0(x2)   -1         -       -       10      See Chart

(p 414) Bahaus Doomtrooper Warrior
PC-606 Hellstorm SMG (ballistic)
CC      PB        SR      MR        LR       ER       DM           SA
-1    2(x2)    0(x2)   -1         -       -       10      See Chart

All of the examples, above, contain typos.  The correct stat lines for all of these should match what is in the section 21.1 - Sidearms, Sub Machine guns on p. 129 (at least some of the ones you pointed out have been addressed in the FAQ, I believe).

As for feedback on your suggestions, I will say that they are interesting, and worthy of playtesting.  Personally, I am not in favor of changing the stats, nor of having more than one model. 

However, if we keep its stats, and add the failure mod, it matches the fluff, and could add an interesting twist to games.  I will bring it up with our group, and see if we wish to test out your suggestions.
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline Topkick

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Re: The Hellstorm SMG
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2010, 07:10:24 AM »
I used a / instead of ( ) but other than that the stats are as they came from my book. As for the two variants, I was offering two possible fixes and was looking for an either this/or that type answer not to introduce 2 more variations of a gun that already has too many.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. - Dr. Seuss (1904 - 1991)

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Offline Oakwolf

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Re: The Hellstorm SMG
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2010, 08:10:09 AM »
I'd prefer to use the basic Main Armory profile as well. The rate of fire of SMGs provides excellent stopping power at close range.

As a note: The explosion jam is a bit too explosive...it should affect the model carrying the gun only.(we're not talking of a grenade, after all ^^).

Offline Topkick

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Re: The Hellstorm SMG
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2010, 09:24:45 AM »
True Oakwolf but we are talking about a magazine fed, rapid fire 20mm autocannon and not a true SMG. Having seen what cook-off can do in smaller weapons I think limiting the effect to just the guy with the gun is a bit too far the other way but appreciate your thoughts.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. - Dr. Seuss (1904 - 1991)

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Offline dmcgee1

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Re: The Hellstorm SMG
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2010, 04:23:01 PM »
After further reflection, I would like to add the following to what I have already said:

I like the idea of a cookoff.  You've kept it a relatively rare occurrence (4.25% chance to Jam, .75% chance to explode).  As for choosing between Mk's 1.1 or 1.2, I would vote for 1.0, and make the template simply  DM 9 (not (x2)) to reflect that the weapon and the shooter are containing some of the shrapnel and that the ammo would disperse and lose kinetic energy from having nothing against which to recoil (else the force of the explosion would be mainly forward of the magazine/barrel).

All in all, I am in favor of keeping the original gun, and I like the idea of adding the cookoff.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2010, 11:32:31 AM by dmcgee1 »
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline Oakwolf

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Re: The Hellstorm SMG
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2010, 06:30:59 AM »
As for the explosion, it does have a fun factor, but...it's still a very wide blast for a weapon misfiring. Consider that the explosion of 1 jammed round and barrel doesn't necessarily make the whole magazine explode, or the intensity of the explosion as dense as a flame thrower. If it was a chance to receive shrapnel, i wouldn't mind as much...but we're adding extra rolls for little actual gameplay improvement.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2010, 12:09:51 PM by Oakwolf »

Offline dmcgee1

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Re: The Hellstorm SMG
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2010, 11:30:54 AM »
I have a question:  If the gun explodes, and the shooter survives the explosion, will the model be able to wield the weapon on subsequent actions?
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline Raga

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Re: The Hellstorm SMG
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2010, 02:04:46 AM »
There was a situation where someone planted a faulty bullet on purpose what caused weapon damage and piece of metal caused eye damage to the shooter. The gunner was hospitalized but the eye was saved.

In my opinion the user should take damage from own weapon (amount of damage should be equal to damage in close combat) and should only affect the user.
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