1st edition - Sidearms

[Raga]

Two quick questions:

I'm very confused about this.
In my opinion they can be interpreted in any way (or maybe my english is not good enough to comprehend it).

- a clubbing attack with sidearm can be parried, but what about shooting in close combat? Can it be parried/avoided too?
- Rulebook says that no close combat skills or modificators affect shooting in close combat. Is it still true with CoW? There is a lot of units having Close Combat Training and having no close combat weapon (except of a handgun)

[Archer]

Answer to the First:  Yes, a clubbing Attack can be avoided via Parry.  The Shooting attack cannot (can't karate chop a bullet).

Answer to the Second:  Correct.  Those with pistols/Machine Pistols/SMG's  use them as clubbing attacks.  *THOSE* sort of attacks get the benefit of skillz.

[Raga]

Thank you for your answer.
We couldn't interpret why a close combat shot cannot be parried cause the rules say that it (parry) can be done with every attack in close combat.
(So shooting even in close combat must still be treated like a ranged attack)
Till now we assumed parrying shooting in close combat like "gun kata" in "Equilibrium" - deflecting arm with a gun.

With your suggestion crappy handguns and smgs are a bit more effective.

[Oakwolf]

We always had SMGs and pistols use their damage in CC (though no bonuses apply), but while a shot can't really be blocked, you can push aside a gun or somehow duck at the right time, which is what the parry is.

The parry rule doesn't give any exception to work on, apart from a hidden model charging.


That being said, shotguns get a bit hard to use in cc if you both have the Strenght test and the parry roll.

[Raga]

Summary and Clarification
There must be an asumption made that:
- close combat is a situation where two models touch their bases
- in reality the models are about 1 meters apart to make some 2-handed weapon swings possible (claymore, pickaxe, battle axe, etc.)
- every melee (and only melee) attack can be parried in close combat (block incoming weapon or dodge)
- shooting in close combat is a ranged attack that cannot be parried (you do not have to make contact, and you are too far to deflect opponent's arm)
- strength test with a shotgun substitutes parry (pushing opponent away - no further parry allowed)

Reason
All of the ranged weapons deal less damage if used as melee weapon.
But why does some units with close combat training have sidearms?
Brotherhood Elite Trooper
- clubs opponent with a rifle for 10 dam
- shoots a handgun for 10 dam (what is his handgun for?)
Blitzer
- clubs opponent with a rifle for 10 dam
- shoots an smg for 10 dam (what is his smg for?)

I wonder if you agree with me.

[Oakwolf]

On the shotgun: here we've removed the ST contest to use the shotgun, but we allow the parry instead. The way one could read it, ST test was an aborted-child parry rule, basically, so there was no need for both.

Of Sidearms and parry:

It's a matter of assumption and house ruling, but one has to take account that some troops's main defense is their parry roll (High CC and low armor find safety in close combat in the first edition; Samurai comes to mind).

It won't be too bad for most situations when the sidearm has damage 10, but it will be rough when the stronger sidearms come around. DAM 14+  pistols would get pretty insane,...in fact, they become better than many cc weapons or options. There won't be much reason not to have 2 sidearms rather than close combat weapons (punishers, voriches, P1000, etc.). Some cc specialists will suffer quite alot from this, especially if they do not carry a sidearm.

As a note on the point blank shots, some greater size models should be able reach anyone in cc, and you can always swing at another's weapon to deflect the shot coming out. CC = in range of both combatant, you have point blank range (the usual short range of pistols) for the situation you describe. Keep in mind the very low cost of the sidearms, and the fact they have range instead of bonuses in melee: meaning that you can aim and fire at point blank range without being parried already, just not in cc.

I do agree that sidearms are of quite limited use in the 1st edition, but removing all parries from a cc attack seems to slightly overswing the balance in disfavor of cc units without the powerful sidearms. In my opinion, the problem is that they were implemented as too weak in damage, other weapons too strong at close range and their cost leaving little to no room for potential. UWZ solved that issue handsomely, i must say.

An idea would be to let Close combat specialists add their skill to sidearms they carry. It'd portray it as a sort of mini-aiming abilities in such death-close range.

[Raga]

I agree with you partially.

If it is not a problem to you tell me what units are armed with powerfull handguns of 14+ dam?
What units can be armed with two powerfull handguns?
The only units are Etoles Mortant - the most crappy sneaking troops in whole 1st edition or individuals that can be armed with HMG...
What would mean one HMG less on the battlefield!

You mentioned that handguns have range but most units armed with one have also a rifle so range of such handguns is useless.
Greater size models can reach opponents really fast but I really can't think of any example of handgun abuse.

Summary:
I like your idea of adding close combat training to damage of sidearms (pseudo aim) and to let parry them. (suprising isn't it? )

[Archer]

Hrm....

  as I recall, only units armed with swords or shileds can parry.  It's been forever since I played 1st so my memory is fuzzy on that.

[Oakwolf]

@ archer: for your convenience if you want to read, look at the Dawn of War supplement, in the parry section. Basically it states that all attack made in close combat can be parried. The question is to determine what they meant by the fact sidearms can be fired in cc. Is it parriable or not?

@ Raga: I was talking of individuals, obviously, when i mentionned of 2 sidearms.

Single powerful sidearm equipped squad, as far as I can remember:

DAM 14+Etoile mortant
Valkyrie
Vestal
Mortificators
Shadow Walkers
Sacred Guard
Fury Elite guard
Shock Troopers
Mirrormen
Warhounds(logically would get them if they were not parriable)
Cartel agents
Acolytes
Initiates
Sacristans
Kadavers

There's a few units with DAM 13 weapons.(black berrets, Tiger Dragons).

[Raga]

Oakwolf:
My interpretetion of troops given by you (you cannot parry handguns in close combat):

yes - increased efficiency in close combat
no - no increase in efficiency (in my opinion)

Troops below divide into two groups:

1) Troops that should never engage into close combat beacuse their ranged weapon is more effective and they rarely survive the charge to fight back:
Etoiles Mortant - yes
Valkyries - yes, they will survive the attack and fight back much more effecively
Vestals - yes, same as Valkyries
Shock Troopers - yes
Warhounds - yes
Acolytes, Initiates, Sacristans - yes
Kadavers - no, I canculated chances to deal a wound with Punisher Combo... suprisingly they seem the same (difference of 0.5% between handgun and blade depending on opponent's armor and CC)
Cartel agents - no, same as Cadavers (Punisher Combo)

2) Troops that have melee attack superior to the ranged one and their charge usually kill so secondary attack (one per turn) is not in close combat:
Mortificators - no, but they have nemesis of 10 dam
Shadow Walkers - no
Sacred Guard - no
Fury Elite guard - no
Mirrormen - no

Summary:
Only Valkyries and Vestals have significant power up and since I am the only Brotherhood player in our group I will not support the idea any longer.

I will stick to the idea of increased damage by Close Combat Training as you proposed.

One more thing:

Hand to Hand - Also known as Close Combat or Melee, describes combat in which there is physical contact between soldiers and their hand weapons.

DoW page 11

NOTE that you can parry all hand-to-hand close combat attacks; not only those that are made as a result of a charge.

Does it mean that shooting in close combat can be parried or not? What does it mean in american/english exactly?
Or maybe it can be interpreted both ways?

[Oakwolf]

 

My bad on the Mortificators, i thought they had a punisher (damn Crenshaw with his avalanche).

Close combat training working with Sidearms seems to be the solution for those very odd units, which curiously seems to come from Bauhaus for the most part

Blitzers
Order of the Wolf troopers
Etoile Mortants
Brotherhood Elite trooper

Any other?

[Raga]

Etoiles Mortant do not have close combat training (that is why they have Punisher Handgun), but there is one more - Jake Kramer

[Archer]

Geez.... I rarely got into CC back int the day unless it was desperation.

Mortant are not as crappy as one might think but you do really need to swarm the opponent- which is a tough thing to do at times.

I so haven't touched 1st Ed in ten years.

[Raga]

Archer:
Etoiles Mortant are not crappy as a unit, they are the worst close combat unit among corporations.
Other Corporations have better stats, abilities or damage output.

Ah, again one more thing...
The next unit that came to my mind is Capitol Covert Ops Specialist...
So, should Close Combat Training bonus be added to shotgun fired in close combat?

[Oakwolf]

Eh, since you refered to the dying stars up there, i assumed you meant they had CC training. I trusted you!

Shotguns do minimal damage anyway, and there's no real problem with them doing more damage when you manage fire under someone's nose. Going strictly by the rules...you have to first succeed in a ST test, then avoid the opponent's parry.

As for Kramer, i don't see much of a problem myself, on paper...might be worth testing.