Author Topic: Rebalancing 1st edition  (Read 10007 times)

Offline Oakwolf

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Re: Rebalancing 1st edition
« Reply #30 on: October 19, 2010, 03:45:31 PM »
as a side note for UWZ, the book is -not- a functional gaming tool and i don't think it was designed as such.

I'd advise you to print out the book and sort out the sections you need, as well as unit cards.

Sadly, i have no clue about 2ed  :-\

Offline master of muppets

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Re: Rebalancing 1st edition
« Reply #31 on: October 19, 2010, 06:26:14 PM »
oakwolf
i would recomend checking out second editon rules as {not army  :'stats :'( }  as they are pretty much the same as 1ed but are written in a more clarfied way

also the weapon range system is good    and the attack in cc at the same time is  awesome for speeding up gameplay and making nailbiting action and panic can affect inderviuals .....tho if you take those rules and replace the first ed  its almost the same 

Offline master of muppets

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Re: Rebalancing 1st edition
« Reply #32 on: October 19, 2010, 07:55:13 PM »
we found that

units may only use 1 action to shoot per turn    units that are on wait may still shoot by passing a ld test and -2 to mw  ,and this is enough penalty to not overbalance to once a turn rule   units that may secondary attack or some such multi attack per action may still do so

we found that a hmg will line up to rake a squad it will burst fire them  mabey kill a guy prehap two  then get shot to ribbons if its still out in the open  as all troops should

we found that units with high ratefire have it but dont just kill everything

this is the 1ed expansion chronopia rules for shooting   and it works for warzone to

also we play with a standard range set 5-8 pistols 8-12 smg 12- 24 assult rifles/lmg/hmg 15-24 rocket launchers and snipers
yes i know it removes the small differences in guns range from the corps but it makes life easyier and the range mod and dam stay the same  also it makes hmgs a lot less of a handfull 

also models have only six clips if they fail on a 16 or higher they lose a clip  ammo is infinate provided you never miss   {just like the movies]  16 is the mw cap   {only for 500 or less games}

to speed up and give inbulit negitives and postives to close combat  we use the 2ed style combat rules and apply them to 1ed stats     try it it works well 

run -if a unit chooses to run they must spend all their actions to do so and they gain +1mv per action spent

my group{gamers guild} found that this works best   
we play all sorts terrain types and game types  we found this blanket rule just works for warzone well

we are playtesting a diffent style of army construction  at the mo its you choose a hero type figure {not a personalty ::) } or a vecile then get it some kit if you want minus this from 100 pts then add the total to 300 this will give you the number to buy him a force   you may then purchace from any unit list in your chosen army without haveing to stick to the squad buy conditions eg you must have 3 of x unit and a sargent etc   you must have 4 non speclist units to each specilist    just like a normal squad does

we are divided over single model activation   or grouping your force into 100pt squads and activating them like that   this will give you a flexiable squad construction and result in brutal firefight and fast paced games with a high panic /route rate   that helps bring the game to a close quick
we are kinda useing these rules for a necromunwhatva :-[ style warzone campain {i know gw suck but hey small scale gang warfare where every model is diffent is kinda fun especilly when they gain experince and stuff   

 
 

what do you think?

Offline Raga

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Re: Rebalancing 1st edition
« Reply #33 on: October 20, 2010, 12:57:28 AM »
I don't get the structure. Can you give an example?
Please give exact Capitol or Imperial (for example) models that can be fielded for 1000 points.

1 shot per activation?
Minimial squads of Cadavers + Horde of Golems of Darkness with Azogars + one Nepharite/Tekron
Horde of Illian Wheel Templars
(good examples? - Thank You)

Ammo clips are only fluff and we play only with 1000-2000 point armies so it would make a lot of confusion.

Weapon ranges: I really tried to do that, but it cannot be done. You have to modify every single weapon (cost) but it still hadicaps some corporation and gives enormous boost to special weapons (Fusieliers, Surveilers, Flamers).

Switching 1st edition to 2nd editon close combat rules is a bad idea.
It powers up individual (high CC) models even more (and I try to do everything against individual models abuse)

Running: you Handicap Mishimian Banzai Charge (now every corporation has it)
« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 01:06:23 AM by Raga »
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Offline master of muppets

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Re: Rebalancing 1st edition
« Reply #34 on: October 20, 2010, 02:34:07 AM »
just a quick summary of a few concepts we are play testing without going into massive detail as i hate typing
 
units only being able to spend one action per activation making ranged attacks works quite well 
a model can shoot again from wait but has to make a ld and has -2 to mw   
try it    if you want futher details then  i guess i can type them,  but what more can i say


ammo clips as i said  were used for games of 500pts or less we  use them in 300pts    so its not to much problem  keeping track  damagex2/3/4etc weapons run out of ammo quite quick whenthey try burst fireing
and normaly they are heavy storybased games with a gm

as for weapon ranges it dosent give massive boosts to many weapons as they still get their negtives for fireing over the min range and damgae witch are diffent in some cases and the same in others   and flamers use a template anyway how does a standard range affect that?     
the game has a rule for weapon types eg sidearms etc ,why not standard ranges caping out at 24

hmgs and snipers are a pain when they can shoot futher and hit harder than most weapons but standard ranges  stop this as well as only one shot per activation
eg if a inderviual with a heavy weapon fires on a unit  it will only kill 1 prehaps more depending on the multipiler etc  but they may return the with 1 shot each
where as normally the inderviual will potentialy get 3 ac   at x3 for each shot   sounds like a recipe for squad killer to me    if a power unit isnt backed up it will get owned


also i cant give you a 1000 point army as it would be of normal 1ed construction   i stated that the playtest army constuction  is for 300 pts armys   not 1000 pts    witch tend to be only a handful of figures
any way ...choose a inderviual unit/special charecter minus its cost from 100 then add the remainder to 300 and you may spend the total on any comination of troops from a single list and not be bound to normal squad structure
  another way to put it is every model you buy is bought as a inderviual    as long as you stick to 1 heavy weapon per 4 non heavy weapons    but these numbers may be made up from any combo


either activate them as they were all inderviuals or as lots of 100pts that have to act as a squad with a leader and command distance   we are undecided witch is best  more playtesting

im aware that 2ed combat rules dont quite fit 1ed   but   their is no adjustments for your oppents skill in cc
just roll under the number given

assuming you know 2ed {yes the stats were generic and flavorless but the rules were a good advancement a 1ed but 1ed has the flavor and customization

but for example if a unit has 13 cc   and it is fighting a unit with 15cc then useing 2ed there is a adjustmet for skill    for example        the 13cc becomes a roll of 8  and the 15 becomes a roll of 12 then modifers are added      but if the 15cc comes up against a 12cc then it will have to roll 13 and the oppoent 7
witch accounts for units abiiltys to fight and defend themselfs agaisnt different enemys
 also when a unit engages another unit in cc and dosent kill them then most likly that unit will spend its next actavation action attacking back   so why not do it at the same time and speed things up?  if you charge then you get to resolve you action and damge before they get to attack back     and then combat continues as normal with both units spending actions and rolling untill one is dead or they have spent all action     if you charge a unit that has already spent its actions then you just get to lay into it
for futher details read the 2ed close combat section  and just use the basic idea of sametime attacking and working out the cc
yes its different but not really and it really does have the same result but is faster and creates a tension of  close combat

we play 1000 pt+ games with these rules adjustments just fine and they flow and we played even amounts   
of standard warzone 1ed and the results of battles were just the same   it did not seam to hinder stragety or unbalance the rules in favor of anything except it depowered the lmgs/hmgs  while still retaining the power comparison to other weapons       
no more hmgs slaying whole units is a win in my books


im not very good at typing and grammer and apologise in advance   im to impatient to type and keep track of mistakes 

stephan

Offline Raga

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Re: Rebalancing 1st edition
« Reply #35 on: October 20, 2010, 03:07:58 AM »
If the HMG operator kills 1 model per turn so I prefer to have 2 normal troopers at the same cost and range (same chances and one more wound)

I know 2nd edition close combat rules, but it should not be use with 1st edition stats.
The greater difference in CC of attacker/defender gives the greater difference to hit.
The models of equal CC have always 50% chances to hit themselves - it is okay
But model with lower CC has less chances (on the contrary with models with higher CC) to hit with 2nd edition rules than with 1st edition - I call it Individual models abuse. Difference varies from 5-15% (parry included in calculation).
Keep in mind that wounding individual models is more difficult than wounding ordinary trooper.

You make your homerules for your restrictions (no Heroic abilities, Special Equipment and Personalities) if it is okay for you, do it.
I try to make my modifications compatible with all optional rules in compendiums (except the one for quick battles) that is why our points of view differ.
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Offline hammer326

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Re: Rebalancing 1st edition
« Reply #36 on: March 02, 2011, 01:11:29 PM »
thank you for starting this thread, I am new to the game and have the 1st ed. rules and really like some of the balancing agents proposed. well done all of you!

Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Rebalancing 1st edition
« Reply #37 on: March 03, 2011, 05:02:15 PM »
thank you for starting this thread, I am new to the game and have the 1st ed. rules and really like some of the balancing agents proposed. well done all of you!

WELCOME ABOARD!

Nice to see new faces, always!
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

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Offline Oakwolf

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Re: Rebalancing 1st edition
« Reply #38 on: March 04, 2011, 07:22:09 AM »
Indeed welcome around,

See i might actually return to 1st edition as well, as i'm faced with consistency issues with the UWZ version.

Offline Raga

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Re: Rebalancing 1st edition
« Reply #39 on: March 05, 2011, 08:21:01 AM »
Indeed welcome around,

See i might actually return to 1st edition as well, as i'm faced with consistency issues with the UWZ version.

Glad to hear :)
Let us drink to the power drink to the sound
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Offline Oakwolf

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Re: Rebalancing 1st edition
« Reply #40 on: March 06, 2011, 11:52:52 AM »
It is ironic, because UWZ did solve quite alot of things that plagued seriously the 1st edition but there's something missing, and it's mostly about the mood and feel of the game, how troops behave compared to the background, and there are some aspects of melee vs ranged that still befuddles me even when taking all the terrain/environmental aspects.

I'll follow up with a question for 1st ed.:   Are the demnogonis last ritesmen immune to panic/rout?  I'd guess so from the text, but it's not written anywhere.






Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Rebalancing 1st edition
« Reply #41 on: March 06, 2011, 01:07:48 PM »
It is ironic, because UWZ did solve quite alot of things that plagued seriously the 1st edition but there's something missing, and it's mostly about the mood and feel of the game, how troops behave compared to the background, and there are some aspects of melee vs ranged that still befuddles me even when taking all the terrain/environmental aspects.

I wish I knew how you and your group played.  Close Combat works great in UWZ; it's one of the great aspects of the game.  We (our proup) love it.

As for what may be felt to be missing, you are not alone.  I cannot say more other than to say that I see good things ahead.
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline Oakwolf

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Re: Rebalancing 1st edition
« Reply #42 on: March 06, 2011, 04:32:51 PM »
That's good to hear. Consider me a fluffmonster, so to say, i want things to be as clost to the rpg as is possible. I cringe everytime i think of necromutants fleeing in UWZ :D.

As a note, the very low range of skill variation might produce a generic "blanket of imcompetency" to the experience of UWZ.  You can't rely on your troops to do something when you need it, but instead, it just happens randomly over time. That is perhaps why CC troops failed for us. If they aren't killed by ranged fire, they generally have 1 single activation and sometimes one single action (charge) to make or break their game, after which they are promptly wiped by short range HMG/LMG/SMG/Shotgun fire. At those smaller ranges, cover is rarely in effect, and environmentals are unpredictable to cause havok.

Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Rebalancing 1st edition
« Reply #43 on: March 06, 2011, 07:56:09 PM »
That's good to hear. Consider me a fluffmonster, so to say, i want things to be as clost to the rpg as is possible. I cringe everytime i think of necromutants fleeing in UWZ :D.

As a note, the very low range of skill variation might produce a generic "blanket of imcompetency" to the experience of UWZ.  You can't rely on your troops to do something when you need it, but instead, it just happens randomly over time. That is perhaps why CC troops failed for us. If they aren't killed by ranged fire, they generally have 1 single activation and sometimes one single action (charge) to make or break their game, after which they are promptly wiped by short range HMG/LMG/SMG/Shotgun fire. At those smaller ranges, cover is rarely in effect, and environmentals are unpredictable to cause havok.

How many HMG/LMG/SMG troops are you using, and why are you charging into them?  Tactics are essential to using ANY troop as efficiently as possible.  I would love to discuss this with you.  We had a Mishima player who was ready to throw in the towel until we showed him how to use his CC troops in a much better way.  Now, he loves his Mishima troops.  We have another player who loves Cartel agents, and yet another who loves his Children of Illian and his Capitol dog force.

CC is not only a good option, but it adds much more flavor to the game.
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline Raga

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Re: Rebalancing 1st edition
« Reply #44 on: March 07, 2011, 03:13:51 AM »
dmcgee1:
I must ask because I don't know you. How long had you played 1st edition? - I'm just curious

How many HMG/LMG/SMG troops are you using, and why are you charging into them?  Tactics are essential to using ANY troop as efficiently as possible.  I would love to discuss this with you.  We had a Mishima player who was ready to throw in the towel until we showed him how to use his CC troops in a much better way.  Now, he loves his Mishima troops.  We have another player who loves Cartel agents, and yet another who loves his Children of Illian and his Capitol dog force.

The aspects you mention are true for any edition - not only UWZ. Proper tactics can solve any situation on the table.

I understand that there are some players who started their Warzone adventure from UWZ (later edition is usually better), but I don't understand what motovated people to move to UWZ (from 1st edition).
In my opinion fluff factor cannot be taken under consideration (UWZ and 2nd edition have no advantage over 1st edition)
Gameplay? 2nd edition sucks... and how about tons of faq for UWZ?
1st edition was a skirmish game and if someone doesn't like skirmishes - switching to WH40k is a much more logical option.
So what is it?
Let us drink to the power drink to the sound
Thunder and metal are shaking the ground
Drink to your brothers who are never to fall
We're brothers of metal here in the hall