Author Topic: Rebalancing 1st edition  (Read 10006 times)

Offline Oakwolf

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Re: Rebalancing 1st edition
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2010, 08:49:49 PM »
Continued...

Aiming giving +2 MW and +2 DAM, except snipers

You say that almost every troop was pseudo sniper... Well most of them do not live long enough to try. This rule says: throw away your useless corporate handguns and smg's (and all other weapons with dam 10-12).
Taking under consideration Corporarions that have 12 dam on assault rifles, you cripple them enough to be no threat for high armor units.


If you have a problem with troops dying too much, try this rule and the next one. We find it logical that a 1 point pistol has little chance to poof the more enduring troop types. When aimed, that 1pt  pistol still has 1/10 chance of hurting max armor troops. But these weapons are basically emergency sidearms. They can kill infantry that are close, but are not made to pop tanks or super heavy infantry. I play with troops that have 12 damage rifles, and I am always surprised how, eventually, these weapons find their mark.

Heavy wepons cannot be aimed

We tried this one and it caused: deploy minimal squads and maximize quantity of captains with sniper rifles.
Well, according to rules every ranged weapon that must be braced (has damage multiplier) is a heavy weapon.
It may be not stupid with HMGs having at least 15(x3), but cripples all of the LKM's
Bauhaus has few types of units and now becomes not playable, especially interesting units as Dragons and Venusian Marshall (Dargon Kampfkanone). Try to kill with them Capitol Heavy Infantry (ordinary trooper) with 30 armor (Base 26 + Extra Cover) .


We don’t use minimal squads here to maximize individuals, because we mostly play by scenarios we make. The snipers you had probably were equiped laser sights to make them very powerful, but remember our 3 action rule and we do not use those equipments for “match points”. (As for snipers, the “set up” action removes a lot of mobility to the individual),
The Kampfkanone still fires at a respectable 13x2, but it is its range which really makes the squad shine. At 14MW with 20” short range, Dragoons can enter a shoot out at 2vs1 against most infantry and come out on top. Also, should you have paid the rocket launcher option, Extra Cover becomes much less of an issue. The Dragoons are made to fight against infantry, not vehicles or super heavy troops, and they do their job very well. If their presence forces enemies to go into extra cover, it restricts their movement. The Venusian Marshal does not have to brace that weapon to fire it (ST 2).


We tried to play without heroics and special equipment but the game becomes so poor. It is the main advantage of 1st edition. And it is the only way to create individuals that can stand up (survive a round or two) to Alakhai, Karak and other models with 30 armor and Ignoring wounds. You should also forbid to use personalities.



We play by scenarios that we “want to see”, so sometimes a personality will pop, and it’ll be seen as an extra challenge. The Dark Legion is where you find the “Big Bads”, and the brotherhood is not far behind, admitingly. We accept it as part of the Mutant Chronicles that it takes 2 Doomtroopers, often more, to kill those famed villains, simply because when we played the rpg, it was just like that (it took a full party to bring down a Nepharite, for example, and odds were that some would die in the attempt). We just do not use personalities without talking about it, they are not well balanced to be used blindly. Same goes for special equipment; at least for myself, the special equipment was solely fun from the rp aspect of individual’s customization, but for point matches, I really disliked the impact.

In my opinion, there’s no point in trying to make a human stand 1v1 against Alakhai, only the Cardinal could do so and not face dreadful odds. The greatest heroes of corporations are already personalities in the books, but player-made individuals will still give him a fight regardless. With the rule of 3 actions, he won’t be cleaving your deployment zone in half on the first turn either.

Well, that’s what I could say to the issues you raised. We may disagree but i do hope you had fun reading  :)
« Last Edit: August 22, 2010, 05:28:59 AM by Oakwolf »

Offline Raga

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Re: Rebalancing 1st edition
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2010, 11:22:39 PM »
Oakwolf: I was thinking all the weeked about your posts and I coud again give my comments but I will try to make it it short.
Your modifications are good only for your armies and your scenarios. Our scenarios seem a bit different because it didn't work for us.
If it works for you I give you my blessing.
I don't want to argue any more, because I made my rules for ALL of the armies the player could EVER use. Including all compendiums (even Imperial Bridgehead, Cathedral and Dark Eden). I want them to be balanced for all of the units.
The main reason I posted it here is that I would like all of you to read it (maybe test it with your armies) and give your comments what doesn't work and give me examples what I missed.
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Offline Raga

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Re: Rebalancing 1st edition
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2010, 12:02:59 AM »
Oakwolf:
I will give especially for you my favourite Dark Legion Army for 1500 points:
10x Undead Legionnairies + Nepharite Warlord
10x Undead Legionnairies + Nepharite Warlord
2x Pretorian Stalker
2x Pretorian Stalker
Ragathol
Golgotha
Necrogmagus (the only Nazgaroth in my army and one of two models that can hide)
Golem of Darkness (only with Azogar - a cheap and fast close comat unit)

Lowering aiming bonusses makes my undead legionnairies a bigger crap (which they already are  ;)) - no big deal  :)
No aiming for heavy weapons cripples Stalkers but not much - I can assume nothing changes.
Nazgaroth - I never aim. I prefer to make 2-3 bursts and hide and/or extra cover in the end.
No more than 3 identical Actions..... I already play like this and I don't need such a rule.
Legionnairies - 3 actions so I cannot break the rule (my Warlord has lance of pain so he moves 3 times and uses a gift)
Stalkers - 2 move (out and into cover) + 2 attacks (still no breaking the rule)
Ragathol - 3 move/attack actions + 1 invoking red dust (hiding legionnaires) + 1 reviving dead legionnairies (Time Compression / Dark Healing)
Golgotha - teleport (Gift of Algeroth) + 2-3 attacks + retereat (combined with using harmony or healing)
Necromagus - 2-3 attacks + extra cover and/or hiding
Golem - I usually move him 3 times and hide (still no change in play)

Your 3 action rule do not exist for assertive players like me and forces other players to play the same. I am really against affecting gameplay of others.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 12:46:23 AM by Raga »
Let us drink to the power drink to the sound
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Offline Oakwolf

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Re: Rebalancing 1st edition
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2010, 05:08:27 AM »
Just to illustrate how our games are different; my basic Algeroth cohort is like that:

Undead Legionnaires +Necromutant
Undead Legionnaires +Necromutant
Undead Legionnaires +Necromutant
5 Necromutants + Centurion (1 tormentor if i feel like it)
Ezoghoul or Razide.

As we'd go up in scale, so would the number of squads (but we wouldn't go as high as 1500 since it'd be too long to play). Eventually, 1 Nepharite would show up, along with brass appocalypts for elites. If we want to spice up things, Golgotha or a Bio Giant could make an entry.

Personally, i only field stalkers pairs when they are pitched against doomtroopers (it makes an awesome deathmatch :P). But yeah, we're biased by the roleplaying game.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 05:11:53 AM by Oakwolf »

Offline Raga

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Re: Rebalancing 1st edition
« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2010, 06:00:16 AM »
One of my friends usually plays Imperial like this:

2x minimal trencher Squads with 2 (Destroyers each)
2x Trencher Captains with sniper rifles
2x Blood Berets variation (Rams, Hunters or Golden Panthers)
1x Captain with MHG/Puker/Sniper Rifle
1x ISC Agent with Deathlockdrum
4x corporate medics
+ sometimes 1x Hurricane Walker (Stinger wersion with 2 Southpaws)

I would love to play with loads of Cannon Fodder but it is Imposible with him.
He is a powergamer so if I want to have a slight chance of winning I cannot make a weaker army.
I could use Necromutants instead of Stalkers but that would be a suicide (we start at the distance of 60 inches), I could maximize Casters or Nazgaroths and you don't even imagine how often I loose and promise myself to use Alakhai or Karak (with Wheel Templars) next time (But in the end I don't, because when I win, I have more satisfacion).
I imagine that you play scenarios for fun. I have plenty of examples what is unbalanced (My friend uses every trick he finds to win) and I'm balancing 1st edition for everyone who plays against him. Try to understand my reasons :)
« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 06:03:25 AM by Raga »
Let us drink to the power drink to the sound
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Offline Oakwolf

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Re: Rebalancing 1st edition
« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2010, 08:05:18 AM »
Ah, this explains everything. Thanks for taking the time to post that; it puts your thread in context of your games.


Offline Raga

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Re: Rebalancing 1st edition
« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2010, 12:45:32 PM »
Don't get me wrong. I don't want to modify the rules to win with my army (I have 3 armies to choose and I can easly win using standard rules)
Our group has armies of: Brotherhood, Dark legion, Imperial, Mishima, Capitol and Bauhaus.
We tested almost every configuration of armies, we went through playing without special equipment end heroic abilities, we played campaigns with experience points and victory points. Everyone used to sit near deployment zone and waited at the range of HMGs and sniper rifles and the one that tried to come closer always lost. The Objectives (take and hold, retrieve the artifact, rescue the prisoner etc.) changed the gamepley. It forced the armies to move their butts.
But the other problems always remain:
- what to do to make bigger squads efective enough than maximizing quantiny individual models
- how to move squads to assault rifle range
- how to make close combat troops usable (to let them survive to close combat range)
- how to make all the wepons in armories usable (handguns, smgs, shotguns)
- how to make winning depandant on strategy and not quantiny of individuals with HMGs
Let us drink to the power drink to the sound
Thunder and metal are shaking the ground
Drink to your brothers who are never to fall
We're brothers of metal here in the hall

Offline Raga

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Re: Rebalancing 1st edition
« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2010, 12:01:20 AM »
Yesterday we made a real test of our rule modifications - moved to the first post of this topic.
I hope that it is the last rule update and we would not be edited for a long time.
Starting distance: 50 inches
Terrain: 2 dense forests (A4 size) at the edges of battlefield and lots of walls (about 25% blocking LOS and the rest where heavy covers)
Visibility: fine weather, enemy deplyment zone seen in about 80%
Point Limit: 1500
Armies: Imperial vs Capitol

Imperial:
3 Squads of Regulars with 2 chargers each (7 models each) (Specialists: Very Strong, Sergeants: Bionic Eye)
2 Regular Captains with Sniper Rifles (Bionic Eye)
1 Squad of Sterlings with 1 Destroyer (Sergeant: Subdermal Armor)
1 Squad of Black Berets with 1 Gehenna Puker (Sergeant: Subdermal Armor)
1 Black Beret Captain with 2 Chainrippers and 2 Interceptors (Crack Shot and Laser Sight)
1 Hurricane Walker with 2 Soutpaws
1 Gray Ghost
1 Corporate Medic

Capitol:
2 Squads of Heavy Infantry with 2 M89 each (7 models each) (Specialists: Very Strong, Sergeants: Command Helmet)
1 Squad of Martian Banshees (Sergeant: Subdermal Armor)
1 Banshee Hero with M50 Assault Rifle and 2 Car-24 SMGs (Pain Resistant and Laser Sight)
1 Squad of Desert Scorpions (Sergeant: Laser Sight)
1 Desert Scorpion Hero with Punisher Blade and Silenced M50 Assault Rifle (Scout and Laser Sight)
1 Mitch Hunter
1 Seconding Brotherhood Mystic (Great Coordination) Arts: Exorcism and Telekinesis
2 Corporate Medics
2 Great Grays Piloted by Desert Scorpion Captains (Equipped as normal Desert Scorpion)

First Impression: No Heavy weapons on Individual Models...!!!
End Turn Summary:
1st Turn: 1 wound on Great Gray Pilot, 2 Wounds on Hurricane Walker
2nd Turn: Hurricane Walker Destroyed, 1 Great Gray Destroyed, 3 Capitol Heavy Infantry Dead.
...

Battle Result is not important (my Capitol won!!! :D) but the effects are:
- no first turn massacre - on the contrary to standard rules
- Squads had no problem with getting to Assault Rifle range (even to 12 inches)
- there were some forest encounters (Sterlings vs Martian Banshees) (Desert Scorpions vs Imperial Rerulars)
- every squad was able to kill at least 1 model
- no serious weapon/model domination was noticed but Banshee Hero, Desert Scorpion Hero, Black Beret Captain and Hurricane Walker had most kills
- Damage of Rocket Launchers (tested with Hurricane Walker) dealt to models behind heavy cover is improved by 20% (models with 26 armor must roll 14, not 18 as was with standard rules)

Now this topic fits more to "Open Discussion"
« Last Edit: September 23, 2010, 11:48:01 PM by Raga »
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Offline Oakwolf

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Re: Rebalancing 1st edition
« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2010, 07:58:14 PM »
To ease the understanding of your battle report, maybe a precise listing of the rules you used would help those unacquainted with the thread.

cheers

Offline Raga

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Re: Rebalancing 1st edition
« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2010, 11:32:13 PM »
Listing of the rules is moved and updated in the first post of this topic.
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Offline Oakwolf

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Re: Rebalancing 1st edition
« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2010, 07:03:01 AM »
I definitely like what you've done for the regeneration/Auto-heal rule. Removing an extra roll (which is good for gameplay) and balancing it at the same time.

I think it's a near-perfect solution for trooper types, but rises some question for the following unit:

Mercurian Maculator.

Basically...the "Green Gorilla"'s main attraction is its resiliance over the bio giant, behemoths and other nasties of the size. Its weapon is only average and its melee combat is close to pathetic in comparison. I think that this is the only unit that suffers majorly in overall worthiness.






Offline Raga

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Re: Rebalancing 1st edition
« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2010, 10:23:14 AM »
I do not understand what you exactly mean.

I compared Bio Giant, Behemoth and Mercurian Maculator and I think that "Gorilla's" main attraction is not its resilience.
It is LMG and ability to hide (the only giant model in the game as I recall) in water so over 12 inches it has -8 to spot.
Maculator's fighting range is 40 inches, behemot's is 20 and Bio Giant's is close combat (I don't count its shotgun).
The lake/swamp fielded as element of terrain can be big enough to slow all opponents down and keep them in range.
Let's keep in mind that Maculator is 25% cheaper than Behemoth, and only 10 points more expensive than Bio Giant (who has 40 inches disadvantage compared to Maculator)
« Last Edit: September 24, 2010, 10:47:17 AM by Raga »
Let us drink to the power drink to the sound
Thunder and metal are shaking the ground
Drink to your brothers who are never to fall
We're brothers of metal here in the hall

Offline Melanieshaman

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Re: Rebalancing 1st edition
« Reply #27 on: September 24, 2010, 03:24:57 PM »
I get WHY you are doing this, but why not just adjust the army building rules in UWZ, and some  selective editing of what you do not like about it.

Offline Raga

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Re: Rebalancing 1st edition
« Reply #28 on: September 24, 2010, 11:09:08 PM »
Our MAIN reasons for playing 1st edition are:
- there are no army building rules
- most of individuals are customisable to specialise in long/short/close combat range
If we want to play a scenario in certain enviroment we don't have to field grunts that are useless in some conditions.
The army flexibility is the advantage of 1st edition.

I know you can say that UWZ armies don't have to be balanced cause they already are - so I could switch to UWZ instead of rebalancing 1st edition.
I prefer to rebalance and clarify some rules of 1st edition (they fit 2 printed A4 size pages) than try to understand UWZ rules (I have UWZ Rulebook and I really tried to play).
Just compare quantity of UWZ and 1st edition Game Questions in this forum...
I just (subjectively) think that my way is faster and more clear for me.

One more thing:
I don't want to convince anybody to play 1s edition (I would be happy, but it is not my intention).
I would like to know opnion of people who play/played 1st edition and could give me some clues what issues are not included in my modifications.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2010, 11:19:17 PM by Raga »
Let us drink to the power drink to the sound
Thunder and metal are shaking the ground
Drink to your brothers who are never to fall
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Offline master of muppets

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Re: Rebalancing 1st edition
« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2010, 03:37:36 PM »
i like first edition as well but .....
2ed had sametime combat rolls and a better weapons range modifer
as well as inderviuals can be affected by panic with half wounds {1ed has better panic rules tho}

i tryed to play uwz but found it annoying to look though to many pages

does anyone have any ideas how to make the weapons ranges form 2ed into 1ed