Author Topic: Rebalancing 1st edition  (Read 10017 times)

Offline Raga

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Rebalancing 1st edition
« on: August 18, 2010, 02:09:49 AM »
Below is my version of rule modifications that balances most problems with 1st edition.

Warzone v1.5 Home Rules

Heavy Weapons
Units with 7 or more models can have one additional heavy weapon (Rulebook Page 65)
Burst is not interrupted by missing the target
Penalty for not being Braced is difference between Strength and damage multiplier
Lock on Target does not require being braced and ignores Extra Cover
Availability of AP grenades is the same as heavy weapons

Shotgun
Considered 2-handed sidearm
Automatically hits every target under a Template and in LOS

Template Weapons
Cover affects only chance to hit, it always deals full damage (rule simplification)

Secondary Attack
Available for 1-handed weapons only
May be performed every action (not once a turn)

Deviation
Second digit shows direction (Imperial Bridgehead Template)
First Digit shows distance: 1 – 25%, 2 – 50%
Does not affect AP grenades and AP rockets (miss is a miss)
Weapon deals damage if Template is still in weapon range

Indirect Fire
Includes grenades, grenade launchers, mortars
Ignores Cover
Spotter is no longer needed (Attacker must have LOS)

Hiding and Spotting
There is no bonus for subsequent spotting the same model
Perfect Success does not affect spotting
Individual models within 3” of squads are considered part of them (as per shooting)
All units in Deployment Zone start game hidden, models that cannot hide, lose hidden status when activated for a first time
Model can pass through a hidden model if at the end they do not touch their bases, hidden model can decide to attack or let the model through
Abilities and special equipment do not stack

Close Combat
All attacks can be parried (even shots - deflecting arm holding a weapon) except attacks by surprise
Attack by surprise: sneak attack and back attack
Back attack: when activated, attacker cannot enter LOS of defender before attacking
Difference in strength is subtracted from parrying of a weaker model
Sweep disables damage modifier

Ranged Combat
Distance of 1 inch or less between the models Block LOS
Models cover each other as normal cover
Every attack is nullified by 3” of the forest and covers that obscure whole model
Template that covers only models not in LOS of attacker deals damage only when Deviated

Vehicles
Hit Location Table:
Closed Vehicle – all attacks hit Body
Open Vehicle – 1-15 Body, 16-20 Crew
Losing Control when:
Driver rolls 20
Driver is Hit
Driver is Wounded
Wounds of a vehicle drops to 0:
Open Vehicle – explodes, crew can jump/catapult with LD roll
Closed Vehicle – explodes, crew dies
Wounds of a Driver drops to 0:
Ground Vehicle – automatic loss of control, collision causes explosion
Flying Vehicle – automatic loss of control, explodes on ground

Miscellaneous:
•   Extra Cover:
Works in every Cover
Cover value increases armor (soft cover increases armor by 2, hard cover by 4)
Is a free action when model performed only Move and Infiltrate actions (gaining ground - Gears of War inspiration)
•   Healed mortally wounded models are Prone
Prone – model loses Waiting, close combat attacks against this model get +4 to hit, model must spend first action on standing up (action considered move)
•   Using Special Power Action that does not affect other models is a visible action but does not cause to lose hidden status (can be spotted when performing it) – Shadow walker can poison its sword, Wild Roses can drink whiskey etc.
•   Tangling large models (Mourning Wolves) – first successful tangling in a round is ignored, two models are required to hold one tangle
•   Curator of Demnogonis has additional First Aid ability

Heroic Abilities
1 slot for specialists and individual models
Can be Duplicated
For Specialists: Close Combat Training, Crack Shot, Keen Eyes, Scout, Very Strong, First Aid
Unavailable for Dark Legion

Special Equipment
1 slot for Squad Leaders and Individual Models
Wolfbane Relics are Considered Special Equipment and can be duplicated

Dark Technology
2 slots for Squad Leaders and Individual Models

Dark Symmetry
Dark Gifts can be duplicated, but not Gifts of Apostoles

Modification of Abilities and Special Equipment
Close Combat Training – affects all close combat attacks (even sidearm and shotgun shots)
Born leader – model can Give Order and Rally twice a turn
First Aid – works like a corporate medic
Command Helmet – increases Command Distance by 2”
Laser Sight – does not work with Heavy Weapons and Sniper Rifles
Ignoring/Healing wounds – integrated with armor roll
Model cannot increase base Actions beyond 4
Model cannot increase base Wounds beyond 3

Explanations
Ignoring/Healing wounds – model with Combat Medic Unit making an armor roll of 1-10 passes the armor test (it does not give additional roll as before). It almost does not work with 30 armor (except perfect hits) but makes low armor troops more resistant to flamers and high damaging weapons
« Last Edit: September 23, 2010, 11:44:45 PM by Raga »
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Offline Petru5

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Re: Rebalancing 1st edition
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2010, 07:39:14 AM »
I'm gonna ask a question of you, but I don't want to come across as snarky.  The question isn't intended to be anything more than one to satisfy my curiosity...

Why not just play 2nd edition or UWZ? 

From what I've heard, 1st edition is 'broken' (i.e., there are major imbalance issues), 2nd corrects these issues, but loses all the flavor of the mythos and UWZ combines the best of 1 & 2 into a wonderful gaming experience.
"Game over, man! Game over!"
-Private Hudson

Offline Raga

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Re: Rebalancing 1st edition
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2010, 10:14:20 AM »
You partially already answered your question, but I will try to explain it more.

Second edition is solules, poor and crude. It is balanced but nothing more.

UWZ has more color, more rules (really a lot of rules), but has many restrictions for armies, statis individuals that cannot even swap pistol for a knife, and has a lot of bugs. Even if you have a rulebook, you need a tons of faq to interpret it the right way.

First edition is closest to Mutant Chronicles RPG (which we play from time to time) has Personalities, total freedom of equipping units and choosing forces.
There is no restriction that rorbids me to play only with Free Marines, Mortificators or Wenusian Rangers.
When you played 1st edition for a couple of years you don't want to loose its flavor.

Personally I prefer to do minor changes to first edition and try to balance it than changing to UWZ and wouldn't be able to use half of my models the same time.
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Offline Coil

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Re: Rebalancing 1st edition
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2010, 10:19:55 AM »
Balancewise I think that cutting out the heroic abilities and dark gifts and also most of the optional equipment helps a lot.

The dominance of the HMGs was a problem in 1st ed and decreasing the ranges would help give other weapons a role.

Offline Raga

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Re: Rebalancing 1st edition
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2010, 11:00:39 AM »
Coil: you are somewhat right. Dominace of HMGs is a problem, but only for individuals like ISC Agent (4 actions, 4 move, 3 str and 3 wounds), as he could shoot Charger/Deathlockdrum for two actions and vanish behind the wall.

We go towards reducing restrictions for heavy weapons for troopers (you can aim without bracing and penalty for not beiung braced is not -4 but difference between damage miltiplier and strength) and making it harder to spot (you don't get +4 to spot the same model for each action) plus abilities and equipment do not stack. So individuals with HMG could get hit from waiting, and normal troopers (especially close combat ones could get really close).

We changed parrying (penalty to parry for a weaker model is difference between strength) so even grunt with 0 str can try to parry Alakhai (he must roll 2 but he can)

And we made vehicles like 2nd edition (the only loactions are body and crew in open vehicles) and removed additional effects of loosing wound (except loosing control) like destroying weapon, engines and gas tanks.

And the most important is, we integrated ignoring wounds with armor roll so it almost doesn't work with 30 armor but makes wonders if you have low armor.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2010, 11:05:12 AM by Raga »
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Offline Horned God

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Re: Rebalancing 1st edition
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2010, 01:18:53 PM »
The original poster discovered the reasons why there was a 2nd edition!

Congratz, you should work for a government agency like the IRS.

I think you like 1st edition warzone because it more like VOR, a make-it-your own type of approach.

Offline Raga

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Re: Rebalancing 1st edition
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2010, 08:46:44 PM »
Horned God: I don't think I ever seen that poster. But I really don't need official reasons why the 2nd edition or UWZ were released.
I will stick to 1ed and maybe someday I will switch to unoficial 4th edition (when it is finished - but 1st edition background suits me better)
Can you explain to me the thing about IRS? (I had to check what it is on internet :P)
VOR seems interesting (except these ugly models - that seem more beautiful than 1ed Etoiles Mortant :P), but I learned 5 minutes ago that something like that even exists.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2010, 09:01:03 PM by Raga »
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Offline Raga

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Re: Rebalancing 1st edition
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2010, 06:02:37 AM »
As I mentioned above i prepared my suggestions about rebalancing 1st edition.
Lots of them are only clarifications but there are some new rules or modification of existing ones.
Some of them are obvious but not written clearly in rulebook.
I hope they are logical and easy to understand. If not just criticise me.
I'm waiting for your conscructive opinions and suggestions.

Updated and moved to First Post of this Topic
« Last Edit: September 22, 2010, 11:08:19 PM by Raga »
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Offline Horned God

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Re: Rebalancing 1st edition
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2010, 08:40:19 PM »
Sorry Raga I forgot some of you guys are from other nations. The IRS is the Internal Revenue Service of the U.S.. The 'tax-man'.

I like your proposed changes for 1st edition. By the way I own some of the 1st edition books and I like how they are laid out and colorfully done.

Offline Raga

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Re: Rebalancing 1st edition
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2010, 03:52:05 AM »
Horned God: I still don't understand why I should work there :P
Tax collecting in Poland seem a bit different than in US.
So I don't have any clue if you have some typical opinions about IRS.
If it was some kind of joke or sarcasm, sorry I don't get it. (But I don't mind knowing it :D)

I still hope that somebody using 1st edition would make some commnets to the topic.
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Offline Oakwolf

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Re: Rebalancing 1st edition
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2010, 10:56:13 AM »
Well, i use the 1st edition books myself, i just love those books and they are much better to "corrupt" someone into the game than the UWZ brick :P. Even my sister likes the art. Also, i don't know, the first edition had a "movie-like" flair that UWZ doesn't seem to have. I think that they achieve different things well, respectively.  We just re-started playing lately and here's what we've changed so far:

Aiming provides +2 MW and +2 DAM
We found that +4 was too strong, in that almost all troopers could become pseudo-snipers, even undead legionnaires. With this rule, it does make "elite and few" troops a bit more resilient against the "mass swarm". Snipers still get the old +4MW and +4DAM, but in order to aim, they must spend an action to set up (which will last until they move).

Heavy weapons cannot be aimed:
Their range already saves them from a negative modifier most of the time, and their damage is immense by all accounts.

We do not play with heroic abilities, special equipments (including necrotech or AI programs) unless stated by the rules of a particular troop or individual type.
These things were pretty much why all hell broke loose in the 1st edition, especially in point matches à la 40k. They are far better used in a roleplaying context, or within a campaign story ran by a game master. For point matches, we don't use them unless it's already in the unit's description.

No more than 3 identical actions per activation
We found that things went out of whack when units moved 20+ inches per turn, making the encounters too binary, relying on initiative. All movement actions are considered equal, in that you cannot move 3 times and then charge, or infiltrate twice and charge twice. Charging doesn't count in your max number of close combat actions, nor do secondary/combined attacks. Of course, burst firing count as a single shooting action.

This forces elite troops/individuals to vary their actions and think slightly out of the "no-brainers" box. It's especially visible on Nepharites who have 5 or 6 actions. They are still extremely dangerous, but just can't spend 5-6 actions moving or shooting; they have to be creative to get the most of their value.

Spotting and hiding
The maximum bonus for consecutive spotting actions (on the same target) is +4. However, we've also changed the hide rule so that you can't hide in plain sight of an enemy within 6" (i.e. you need cover to do so).

--------- The Rambo factor

Upcoming for us is a way to better spread the heavy weapons in forces. In the basic 1st edition weapon, there's just no reason not to give individuals the biggest gun of your army, then your elite and lastly, the grunts. This is due to the fact that Heavy weapons costs do not reflect the MW or AC of the carrier, while the stats of those weapon are often completely superior in every way; the cost being the only balancing factor in there. In the end, why would you give a Trencher unit a Charger if you have room for it in a Blood Berret Squad, or, even better, a 4AC 16MW Captain?

The "bracing" action is a way to make them a bit more cumbersome, but high ST individuals disregard it, and even if not, then it only emphasizes that individuals should get the big guns (as they tend to have more actions to shoot after bracing than their trooper comrade)

While we want to change that, we must also consider that some individuals are typically armed with heavy weapons in the Mutant Chronicles (Razides, Doomtroopers, Nepharites, etc); but the result must make it a choice rather than a no-brainer. Personally, considering all this, i do not think that giving bigger squads more heavy weapon is the key.

-----

Lastly, we'll look at the Dark legion's force. I think that UWZ did the right thing in making some divisions at least. The "pick what you want and mix match it up" tend to remove the theme from the army. There might be other armies that benefit from it too, but we're far from there yet.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2010, 11:06:31 AM by Oakwolf »

Offline Raga

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Re: Rebalancing 1st edition
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2010, 12:48:28 PM »
Oakwolf: I must say that your rules are not balanced and would do nothing good in our battles.

Aiming giving +2 MW and +2 DAM
You say that almost every troop was pseudo sniper... Well most of them do not live long enough to try.
This rule says: throw away your useless corporate handguns and smg's (and all other weapons with dam 10-12)
Taking under consideration Corporarions that have 12 dam on assault rifles, you cripple them enough to be no threat for high armor units.

Heavy wepons cannot be aimed
We tried this one and it caused: deploy minimal squads and maximize quantity of captains with sniper rifles.
Well, according to rules every ranged weapon that must be braced (has damage multiplier) is a heavy weapon.
It may be not stupid with HMGs having at least 15(x3), but cripples all of the LKM's
Bauhaus has few types of units and now becomes not playable, especially interesting units as Dragons and Venusian Marshall (Dargon Kampfkanone). Try to kill with them Capitol Heavy Infantry (ordinary trooper) with 30 armor (Base 26 + Extra Cover)

We tried to play without heroics and special equipment but the game becomes so poor. It is the main advantage of 1st edition. And it is the only way to create individuals that can stand up (survive a round or two) to Alakhai, Karak and other models with 30 armor and Ignoring wounds. You should also forbid to use personalities.

No more than 3 identical actions?
The rule is not bad itself but there are some exceptions that make it laughable.
Well lets say I have Golgota, Ragathol, Cardinal Dominic (or any other model with 4 or 5 actions) in close combat with several models and I can attack only 3 of them, and do what with other actions? Swear? Stick tongue at them? Maybe Nepharite of Algeroth should run away from a Wolfbanes?
Tell me what will model with 4 or more actions do while: Banzai Charge (Mishima), Frenzy (Templars), Wolfbane Frenzy (Sean Gallagher just died), Sacrificial Run (Lutherans), Invoke Frenzy (Gift of Algeroth)? Can they attack and move for all of the actions or not? What About Vehicles with 4 actions they must stop every turn (laughable), Flying vehicles with 4 actions cannot stop, they must move every action.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2010, 01:21:45 PM by Raga »
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Offline Oakwolf

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Re: Rebalancing 1st edition
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2010, 01:15:46 PM »
I didn't come here to argue, just offer what we found worked best for us, but we probably don't play the same way. Have fun :)
« Last Edit: August 20, 2010, 01:20:10 PM by Oakwolf »

Offline Raga

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Re: Rebalancing 1st edition
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2010, 01:27:20 PM »
Oakwolf: (you posted while I was modyfying my previous post) Don't take it personally. I don't want to argue either. I just try to point you some exceptions (ie. your new friend with different army and tactics) that will force you to revise your rules.
If you find some mistakes in my rules just point them. I will appreciate it. Have fun too  ;)
« Last Edit: August 20, 2010, 01:32:39 PM by Raga »
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Offline Oakwolf

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Re: Rebalancing 1st edition
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2010, 07:46:08 PM »
Very well, i do appreciate discussions, but yeah...i don't want to "convince" you that we got the truth ;) . Keep in mind that we create our scenarios and games together, we rarely resort to the “make your list I make mine”. Before, we used the game to enhance roleplay sessions. Balance in this game is now an affair of player circles. For us, these work, for you, it might not.

Let's see if i can help you see my point of view (not necessarily agree wiith it, mind you :P):

It'll be lenghty, so brace yourself  ;D

No more than 3 identical actions

The rule is not bad itself but there are some exceptions that make it laughable.
Well lets say I have Golgota, Ragathol, Cardinal Dominic (or any other model with 4 or 5 actions) in close combat with several models and I can attack only 3 of them, and do what with other actions? Swear? Stick tongue at them? Maybe Nepharite of Algeroth should run away from a Wolfbanes?


All the models you mention have the ability to do more than just 4-6 of the same. A Nepharite of Algeroth surrounded by troops is not restricted to a mindless butcher. He can sweep attack twice with its azogar (ouch), force his way out of close combat, annoyed, and then shoot his voriche before charging someone else. That's how it can achieve things that mortals could never dream of, but it can fail too (if completely surrounded and unable to kill anything). It’s even easier to do for models with the art or dark symmetry. This makes them act more heroic when you look back at the whole flow by the variety of their action, rather than repetition.  Try it :)

It is extremely rare for 4 action individuals (with the amount of different actions there are) to be stuck, but the rule makes you think on how to get the most of your heroes. I play with Nepharites at times, myself, and have no problem with it at all.

Tell me what will model with 4 or more actions do while: Banzai Charge (Mishima), Frenzy (Templars), Wolfbane Frenzy (Sean Gallagher just died), Sacrificial Run (Lutherans), Invoke Frenzy (Gift of Algeroth)? Can they attack and move for all of the actions or not?

We simply decided that 3xM was the fastest something could go per turn. For us, more than that made the game weird. We had  no need for individuals to be able to run 20+ inches.

Of all Mishima troops, only Tiger Dragons have 4 acions. The Banzai charge grants them +1Move anyway. It becomes a tactical decision depending on the situation (do they need the CC and ST stats or keep flexibility?) . Granted, Banzai charge’s most powerful asset is that it can be called on Panicking/broken troops, which Tiger Dragons are immune to, so it is rare that they will Banzai, since they are very stealthy troops. There was no complains by our mishima player.

Wheeled Templars only have 3 actions per turn they are not forced to use all their actions to move/charge. As for Karak, he can run a very decent (for us, at least) 15” per turn…and still have 3 actions for the fun of it (2 heavy weapons, dark symmetry…there’s not a chance to loose an action with him :P)

Invoke frenzy, like Banzai, already grants a +1M that helps alleviate all movement loss, but in any way, the +3 strenght is extremely good too (most foes will loose their parry!). The most obvious troop with mitigated benefits from the gift are already high elites: Destroyers, Soul Reapers, Praetorian Stalkers pairs (!), Brass Apocalypts). The mitigation stops as soon as they do reach combat though (where the extra AC will come into account)

Wolfbane Frenzy (Sean Galagher) affects all wolfbanes, but no wolfbane troops have 4 actions. Only Wolfbane heroes/heroines do, and they still get +1 Move anyway. As above, the extra action will get used once the enemy is reached.

I do not own Dark Eden, nor anyone I play with expressed any interest to play with its troops, so I cannot say anything about Lutherans’s sacrificial runs.

What About Vehicles with 4 actions they must stop every turn (laughable), Flying vehicles with 4 actions cannot stop, they must move every action.

There are only 3 vehicles that have 4 actions, and the only flying vehicle that has 4 actions is the unarmed Pegasus. We’ve not played with it yet, due to the Great Grey requirement. I’ve no doubt we’d come up with something very fair for the little bike : ).  Vehicles have extremely high movement already. The slowest vehicle, the GT Offroad, can move 18 inches in 3 actions (the Ilian Cart can nitro ^ ^), which is double that of the standard infantry, and shoots while doing so. As for the Necromower and Fenris Bike, they can can shoot too, so it will very rarely loose the action. It’s up to you to ensure that you can use your 4 actions (it’ll reward the sound tactics, including ramming, hit and runs, shooting etc)

No house rule is perfect, but what troops have a real consequence? Cairaths, Suicide Warheads .

The only troop (that we use) that has a flat out loss with it are Suicide Warheads, but we decided that it needs an action to detonate itself. The test we had still presented them as very dangerous canon fodder (large explosive templates moving 12” per turn for 20 points).

The Cairath comes to mind as well. The reason it is impaired by this rule is that it cannot hide or take extra cover (like Battlehounds of dog soldiers, for example). That said, it is very cheap, has no weapon to pay and its strikes are...a nightmare to deal with. Keep in mind that it will make use of its 4th action as soon as it can do both move and attack in an activation (i.e. when it reaches the enemy), and also when an enemy model hides (it has 15Ld, which is excellent to spot with).

All other troops with 4 actions can do more than just run and fight, they can hide, take extra cover and sometimes, this might entice the player to use often  neglected options (Machinator gunner, for example)
« Last Edit: August 22, 2010, 05:40:07 AM by Oakwolf »