Author Topic: Front Facing and Firing Arc for mounted troops  (Read 5797 times)

Offline Lopis

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Re: Front Facing and Firing Arc for mounted troops
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2010, 10:12:48 AM »
No offense taken.

And I donīt  want to redo the rules, but my line of interpretation may simply be another one.
I want to give you my line of reasoning, perhaps youīll find something that makes it clearer or gives a part of insight why I deduced this view.
And perhaps you see that itīs not totally invalid.
And I donīt want to be offensive by sticking to my point of view either. And I do not want to tell a rule untrue because it doesnīt fit my interpretation or liking. I just have another opinion and think this is also covered by the rules. (As naturally yours is too, even if I think that the part under 6.1 is more a filler in the sentence than a fix ruling - it is valid in itīs way)
And yes Iīm from another country and some other interpretations may differ through the translating. Or I canīt get it clearly out because of my lacking language skills.

So, what I tried is to go from the most basic rules - the definition of LOS - to the special rulings on specific actions. This leads me pretty directly to 6.2.7 where the action in question is defined and described..
Because 6.1 refers to move actions and spotting isnīt a kind of move action, I donīt give this part that much credit that you do.
Further spotting is under the general section 6.2 which actually makes it to an attack action - and again not a move action of another section.
Thatīs why I refer to 1.3 and 6.2.7 only and not to 6.1 in the middle.

Besides that the sentence under section 6.1 can be read in another way. Just another kind of pronounciation of parts - and perhaps I do it only because for me english is a foreign language - lets the sentence look like a listing which changes the outcome:
"However, if a figure simply wants to
1- turn around,
2- to fire at,
3- or Spot a model behind it,
it must use an Action to do so."

It can be read that the listed actions all cost an action; to be simply an enumeration of actions worth a full action.
And each of the listed actions is separated with a comma.
It explicitly doesnīt say "to turn around to fire at - to turn around to spot a model".
But your not accounting for 6.1 which clearly states this, and noware in 6.2.7 does it state you dont have to do this.
--> And again thatīs why I donīt see that itīs īclearly stated that you have to turn aroundī for spotting only.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2010, 10:18:04 AM by Lopis »
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Offline Pollo

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Re: Front Facing and Firing Arc for mounted troops
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2010, 04:32:25 AM »
It can be read that the listed actions all cost an action; to be simply an enumeration of actions worth a full action.

I don' t think it is so. The section is about Moving, not Firing nor Spotting.
The sentence sounds like "if a figure wants to turn around IN ORDER TO fire at or spot a model behind it...".

Anyway, we may go on theorizing for a long time... I really think only the FAQ team can solve the question.
This contradiction implies a basic aspect of the game, therefore it really needs to be FAQed.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2010, 09:44:10 AM by Pollo »

Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Front Facing and Firing Arc for mounted troops
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2010, 03:43:02 PM »
The problem in getting the FAQ Team to come to consensus on this is that you are discussing first edition rules.  As far as UWZ (3rd ed.) is concerned, if you have LOS to a model, and it is the closest target but is out of your firing arc, you must1 spend an AC to turn the model in order to fire at it or you may charge it, in which case, you may turn during the charge.  Spending an AC to turn does come with a side benefit; you may perform an entire Move AC during that AC. 

In UWZ, the only thing necessary to perform a Spot AC is to be able to draw LOS to the model you are attempting to Spot.  It does not need to be in your firing arc.  In order to fire upon it, once Spotted, it then must be in your firing arc, and must be the closest enemy model to the firing model.  IN other words, if it is the closest enemy model, you must face it and fire; you may not fire at a farther enemy model, because LOS, now, exists to the closest model.

1 - Target Priority assumes that you are firing at or charging the target, and therefore must fire at the closest enemy model.  You do not have to face a model if you intend to Move or perform another non-attack AC.  Turning while already in CC does not cost an AC.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2010, 03:47:04 PM by dmcgee1 »
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline Pollo

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Re: Front Facing and Firing Arc for mounted troops
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2010, 06:28:05 PM »
We are NOT discussing first edition rules! ;D Where did you read it?? We all are referring to UWZ manual in this thread! :D

Anyway, the problem is finally cleared! Thanks!

Offline Lopis

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Re: Front Facing and Firing Arc for mounted troops
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2010, 05:27:13 AM »
In UWZ, the only thing necessary to perform a Spot AC is to be able to draw LOS to the model you are attempting to Spot.  It does not need to be in your firing arc.  In order to fire upon it, once Spotted, it then must be in your firing arc, and must be the closest enemy model to the firing model.  IN other words, if it is the closest enemy model, you must face it and fire; you may not fire at a farther enemy model, because LOS, now, exists to the closest model.

1 - Target Priority assumes that you are firing at or charging the target, and therefore must fire at the closest enemy model.  You do not have to face a model if you intend to Move or perform another non-attack AC.  Turning while already in CC does not cost an AC.

Thatīs what I was telling the whole time referring to UWZ rules..., but Iwasnīttrustworthy enough   ;)
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Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Front Facing and Firing Arc for mounted troops
« Reply #20 on: March 14, 2010, 06:59:29 AM »
We are NOT discussing first edition rules! ;D Where did you read it?? We all are referring to UWZ manual in this thread! :D

Anyway, the problem is finally cleared! Thanks!

I am sorry.  I was under the assumption that this was all part of the 1st ed. rules discussion.  I must have brought that over from some of the other threads being discussed, currently.  Again, my apologies.
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Front Facing and Firing Arc for mounted troops
« Reply #21 on: March 14, 2010, 07:04:33 AM »
6.1 tells you that you have to move if the target your trying to spot is not in your forward facing. 6.2.7 tells you that spotting cost 1 action and that you cant move and spot as the same action. So to spot a target you need to have it in your forward facing unless a model has a special ability that states differently.

I tend to agree with Lopis, on this, Phil.  As 6.1 is more a broader definition of the rule, and 6.2.7 is a more detailed definition of Spot.
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!