Author Topic: Flyers and dead Angle  (Read 7787 times)

Offline Lopis

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Flyers and dead Angle
« on: November 27, 2009, 01:18:31 PM »
Do Flyers have a dead angle where they canīt shoot?

E.g. a purple sharkr has a firing Arc of 90°. Does this apply to the ground below also, or can it shoot down in a straight line?


If the firing arc also applies to the ground, would a flyer be allowed to dip the model to reach mor down below?

And if yes, would that count against the maximum of turns in a move action?
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Offline micmellon

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Re: Flyers and dead Angle
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2009, 12:32:27 AM »
I would see this question more in a global way. How is it with earth bounded vehicles and people in MP? Can they shoot up into the sky in any angle?

If yes, I say the flyers are build to fight ground troops, too. Everybody can shoot everybody.

But if anybody has a more qualified answer feel free to disagree  ;D
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Re: Flyers and dead Angle
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2009, 04:52:32 AM »
I'd treat flying units as having a dead angle. If you need to dip to fire then you need to use a move action to descend to make that dip. Flyers don't hover after all.

You could also think like this, a vehicle got a 90degree firing arch, also upward or downward. While most units are ground based and it's just related to that in most times, air battle adds a third axle and the two dimensional firing arch also becomes a 3d arc that is more like a globe.

Someone with a 180degree firing arc got a half a globe in fire arc, someone with a 90Degree got a quarter of a globe, or a cone is what it will look like.

If you exuse the horrible paint work, I think it would explain my thinking. In simple, a 90degree firing range gives you just like a flying range a 1 vs 1 inch step rule. one inch forward let you target something one inch up or one inch down.


Offline Enker

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Re: Flyers and dead Angle
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2009, 06:59:37 AM »
Two options:

The simple one:
Let it all as it is.
There is no 3D Firing Arc and no real 3D Movement of a Flyer in Warzone.
Its only "quasi 3D" since you only change your height band and do not simulate ascending and descending in a real way,
with changing the noding arc, rotation arc etc. of the vehicle.
The result is, that there is no dead angle below a flyer.

The complex one:
You tranfer the firing arc into 3D with a dead angle below or above your vehicle.
But then you must also play flyers fully 3D.
This means you need rules for changing your pitch, roll, yaw angle.
You need rules for strafing. You nees rules for minimal movement and so on.
For me this is not playable in Warzone.
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Re: Flyers and dead Angle
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2009, 09:21:23 AM »
The height rules is the "3d" rule.

One inch forward, one inch up. Descend, Ascend with flying units.

Firing on units that is higher up or lower than yourself. Add height band + inches on ground to determine distance. Keep it within a certain number and yo get a sphere or cone. :)

Offline Lopis

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Re: Flyers and dead Angle
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2009, 09:25:18 AM »
I would see this question more in a global way. How is it with earth bounded vehicles and people in MP? Can they shoot up into the sky in any angle?

If yes, I say the flyers are build to fight ground troops, too. Everybody can shoot everybody.

But if anybody has a more qualified answer feel free to disagree  ;D


Yes youīre right it should apply to all units that have a hindered firing arc.

Yes flyers are built for fighting ground troops but that doesnīt mean that they can do (and I think here of the other units with smaller firing Arcs, too) under all conditions.
Cars are made for driving, but you cant drive them up or down a wall.....
As most airplanes/-crafts arenīt thought for dipping the nose to fire with the weapons (except a StuKa) without losing their height.
But let me come to this in the reply to Enker.


Two options:

The simple one:
Let it all as it is.
There is no 3D Firing Arc and no real 3D Movement of a Flyer in Warzone.
Its only "quasi 3D" since you only change your height band and do not simulate ascending and descending in a real way,
with changing the noding arc, rotation arc etc. of the vehicle.
The result is, that there is no dead angle below a flyer.

The complex one:
You tranfer the firing arc into 3D with a dead angle below or above your vehicle.
But then you must also play flyers fully 3D.
This means you need rules for changing your pitch, roll, yaw angle.
You need rules for strafing. You nees rules for minimal movement and so on.
For me this is not playable in Warzone.


I think the first option isnīt logically right.
And the complex one is a bit too far fetched.....

But we could use the rules we already have!
Because there are actually rules for dead angles.
They refer to the fire trajectory of indirect fire, but could apply in a useful way here.

So a possible solution could be:

Minimum Range in inches to fire at the Target if having a hindered firing Arc (through MP, restrictet angles) [MRT] = height Band difference in inches [HBD] divided by the quotient of the normal firing Arc (normally 180°) and the actual (hindered) firing arc (normally 90°).

So that would mean for the standard case:

MRT = HBD / (180/90)  --> MRT = HBD/2

BTW: We normally played with dead angles as you perhaps remember. Especially in the towers of the bridge field. And I think also with the aircontrol tower...
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Offline Bagomba

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Re: Flyers and dead Angle
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2009, 04:42:58 PM »
wtf....
They are in front of me, beside and behind me....
They canīt escape
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Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Flyers and dead Angle
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2009, 06:12:51 PM »
I'll fall back on common sense, here.  Most weapons have a 180° arc of fire (some less).  That 180° is, actually, able to be represented in 3-D.  Therefore, if a weapon has only a 90°, then it would only be able to fire 90° up and/or down.

If you are having a discrepancy with your fellow player, this is something that should be discussed prior to the game being played.
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline Enker

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Re: Flyers and dead Angle
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2009, 05:01:33 AM »
I'll fall back on common sense, here.  Most weapons have a 180° arc of fire (some less).  That 180° is, actually, able to be represented in 3-D.  Therefore, if a weapon has only a 90°, then it would only be able to fire 90° up and/or down.

If you are having a discrepancy with your fellow player, this is something that should be discussed prior to the game being played.

Yes the 90° arc up and down would be more realistic.
But as I mentioned then you need rules for the pitch or noding agle of a flyer, too.
(Ok the rest was a bit too far fetched)
Why should a flyer not be able to dip his nose so that he can fire at a ground target?
For me these two things directly belong together.
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Offline Dragon62

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Re: Flyers and dead Angle
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2009, 05:51:22 AM »
The UWZ system is not this complex. The 90 degree arc is from the base out no matter what hieght your at. If a miniature is not in that arc you have to move to put it in that arc.
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Re: Flyers and dead Angle
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2009, 07:29:58 AM »
If anything with a mounted gun, you probably need to twist and turn in the air to get the full 90degree fire angle. I have a hard time thinking the gun is able to make that turn. :) Specially if firing upward in the case of a PS or GG where the gun is mounted either below or in the nose.

Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Flyers and dead Angle
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2009, 09:06:31 AM »

But as I mentioned then you need rules for the pitch or noding agle of a flyer, too.


Call it part of the simulation.  The declination or inclination is inclusive of the flyer dipping or raising the nose of the craft.  Either way, stick to the 90°.  Do not add more or subtract less from the angle as listed.


Oh, er, what Dragon62 said (sorry, Phil - I responded first, read second).
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline Enker

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Re: Flyers and dead Angle
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2009, 12:18:31 AM »

So you say all firings arcs are 3D ?

A GT Offroad or a model in MP cannot shot at a flying model directly above it?
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Offline micmellon

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Re: Flyers and dead Angle
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2009, 03:16:40 AM »
Anything else would be not consequent.
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Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Flyers and dead Angle
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2009, 04:00:40 PM »

So you say all firings arcs are 3D ?

A GT Offroad or a model in MP cannot shot at a flying model directly above it?

Trying lying down and pointing a gun straight up (without rolling over onto your back, which would, then, make you Prone).

Simply spend the Action to Stand, then fire away!
« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 04:02:55 PM by dmcgee1 »
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!