Author Topic: Orca - need clarification again - yes it is a dead horse  (Read 6830 times)

Offline luckyone

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Orca - need clarification again - yes it is a dead horse
« on: August 20, 2009, 05:44:42 PM »
I did a search for this and need to know:

Since it takes two actions for the HMG rider to disembark, when does this happen exacly. Does the Orca get to complete it's three actions first or does it happen sometime between actins (usually the second and third action)? Does disembarking occur after the third Orca action? I understand about the form fire team ruling. Command distance unless you use it etc.

Here is how I normally play the Orca:

Action 1 Orca - Shoot and or move the Orca (not HMG on top unless I want the -3 for moving)
Action 1 HMG - Form fire team (obviously optional if I stay within command distance after disembarking)

Action 2 Orca - Shoot and or move the Orca (or stay in place to receive bonus fro not moving)
Action 2 HMG - announce to opponent I am disembarking (I do not normally disembark at this time since it takes 2 actions to do so)

Action 3 Orca - Same as all above. I usually move to get further along the battlefield setting up my HMG gunner to be closer to the enemy.
Action 3 HMG - Complete disembark staying next to the Orca no closer to the enemy then the back of the Orca.

If I do not form fire team I can do it on the HMG's next actication if I want to.

The advantages of forming fire team on turn you disembark are not having to do so next activation, leaving command distance from Orca and "gaining" an activation for each disembarked HMG.

 
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Offline Archer

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Re: Orca - need clarification again - yes it is a dead horse
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2009, 06:16:46 PM »
HMG Gunner is treated as Crew while he is on....  Reluctant crew, mind you but crew.  SO he must use an action with the Orca

Action Two in your example... could be treated as him popping the weapon clasps so he can hop off the walker.... So you have it right.
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Offline luckyone

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Re: Orca - need clarification again - yes it is a dead horse
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2009, 06:36:51 PM »
HMG Gunner is treated as Crew while he is on....  Reluctant crew, mind you but crew.  SO he must use an action with the Orca

Action Two in your example... could be treated as him popping the weapon clasps so he can hop off the walker.... So you have it right.

Obviously forming fire team is a smart action to use as his first action?

You could fire the HMG, but most likely nothing in range on turn 1. "burning" the form fire team action helps alot on turn two IMHO.
Appreciate the help on this Archer.


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Offline Lopis

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Re: Orca - need clarification again - yes it is a dead horse
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2009, 11:29:28 AM »

Obviously forming fire team is a smart action to use as his first action?


Iīm still of the opinion, that FF isnīt a SA you have to activate.
I think it hops in automatically if you start your activation outside of CD....

So I think you can use your set of actions as follows
1 begin dismantling the HMG and do with the Orca as you see fit
2 disembark with the gunner and do with the Orca as you see fit
3 run with the gunner or shoot and do with the Orca as you see fit

You have only to declare when you handle the the crewmember. Either before the Orca actions begin or after them.
This then defines when you can fire/walk the Orca.
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Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Orca - need clarification again - yes it is a dead horse
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2009, 03:29:40 AM »
Quote from: Lopis link=topic=5983.msg46790#msg46790 date=
Iīm still of the opinion, that FF isnīt a SA you have to activate.
I think it hops in automatically if you start your activation outside of CD....

That is not correct.  It does, indeed, consume an Action to Form Fire Team.  It represents receiving/giving direction to/from the model(s) that will, no longer, be in cohesion.
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

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Offline micmellon

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Re: Orca - need clarification again - yes it is a dead horse
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2009, 02:18:24 AM »
Quote from: Lopis link=topic=5983.msg46790#msg46790 date=
Iīm still of the opinion, that FF isnīt a SA you have to activate.
I think it hops in automatically if you start your activation outside of CD....

That is not correct.  It does, indeed, consume an Action to Form Fire Team.  It represents receiving/giving direction to/from the model(s) that will, no longer, be in cohesion.

Please tell me where you found that rule? In the rule book it sounds just like a decision not a action and as far I remember all of my group always understood it this way too. Nothing in the FAQ, too.
So I think the rule is clear like it is. No action necessary!
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Offline luckyone

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Re: Orca - need clarification again - yes it is a dead horse
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2009, 05:53:46 AM »
Quote from: Lopis link=topic=5983.msg46790#msg46790 date=
Iīm still of the opinion, that FF isnīt a SA you have to activate.
I think it hops in automatically if you start your activation outside of CD....

That is not correct.  It does, indeed, consume an Action to Form Fire Team.  It represents receiving/giving direction to/from the model(s) that will, no longer, be in cohesion.

Please tell me where you found that rule? In the rule book it sounds just like a decision not a action and as far I remember all of my group always understood it this way too. Nothing in the FAQ, too.
So I think the rule is clear like it is. No action necessary!

Since Dave is a member of the FAQ team, I believe it does/will consume an action to form fire team. After checking the FAQ and rulebook, it does need to be added/clarified such. Page 40 describes actions and the from fire team special ability needs to be added/clarified to be in cluded there. It also can be added to the special abilities section to help clarify.

So basically, you are both correct. I would from now on play that it consumes an action.
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Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Orca - need clarification again - yes it is a dead horse
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2009, 06:05:18 PM »
Quote from: luckyone link=topic=5983.msg46988#msg46988 date=
Since Dave is a member of the FAQ team, I believe it does/will consume an action to form fire team.

Never - ever - assume that a FAQ Team member is incapable of misinterpreting a rule.  I am as capable as any other player of being wrong or right; this has been proven, both ways, on several topics, not the least of which is any disagreement I've had with my wife.  ;)

Quote from: luckyone link=topic=5983.msg46988#msg46988 date=
After checking the FAQ and rulebook, it does need to be added/clarified such. Page 40 describes actions and the from fire team special ability needs to be added/clarified to be in cluded there. It also can be added to the special abilities section to help clarify.

After re-reading the rules (something that I should always do before spouting off at the mouth), I agree that the rule is in need of clarification, as I believe that I have been told by the author, himself, that Form Fireteam requires the spending of an Action.
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Orca - need clarification again - yes it is a dead horse
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2009, 06:06:59 PM »
Quote from: micmellon link=topic=5983.msg46986#msg46986 date=
Please tell me where you found that rule? In the rule book it sounds just like a decision not a action and as far I remember all of my group always understood it this way too. Nothing in the FAQ, too.
So I think the rule is clear like it is. No action necessary!

I cannot, by the book, disagree with you, at this time.  Good catch!
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline Dragon62

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Re: Orca - need clarification again - yes it is a dead horse
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2009, 05:11:54 AM »
I believe Dave is correct to the fact of Thom stating it cost an action and after reading the definition I can see where it looks like it dosn't. I feel it takes an action myself. I went back and looked at 1st edition. Form-fireteam was originally designed to take the heavy weaponsfrom a squad say(wolfbanes with 2 hmg) and make a support squad that acted seperatly from the original unit. Now here's my question. Take the Orca's since the term is form-fire team do the HMG specialist form 1 team of 3 or are they 3 seperate units?
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Offline luckyone

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Re: Orca - need clarification again - yes it is a dead horse
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2009, 05:21:24 AM »
I believe Dave is correct to the fact of Thom stating it cost an action and after reading the definition I can see where it looks like it dosn't. I feel it takes an action myself. I went back and looked at 1st edition. Form-fireteam was originally designed to take the heavy weaponsfrom a squad say(wolfbanes with 2 hmg) and make a support squad that acted seperatly from the original unit. Now here's my question. Take the Orca's since the term is form-fire team do the HMG specialist form 1 team of 3 or are they 3 seperate units?

Good question Phil. I hope they are seperate units for this answer. If they are the same unit, it gets rid of my activation advantage. I promise not to take Orcas when we play again.


Always look out for number one, but don't step in number two.
What do you mean Flash Gordon approaching? OPEN FIRE!
The entire Capitol Army.
Don't ever say anything but a 20 before rolling the dice.

Offline micmellon

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Re: Orca - need clarification again - yes it is a dead horse
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2009, 06:52:11 AM »
Normally (or in most cases) you have only one model which can leave the squad. If he meets a second guy running around with form-fire-team and they want to build a new leaderless squad (like it is mentioned in the discription) who has to spend a action to build the team and just imagine 3 guys.

Is there an extra action necessary at all? Looks like a waste of a lot of actions for me if every model has to spend an action to build a new squad. is this how it should work? Sounds like too many actions just for a minor special ability.
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Offline Archer

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Re: Orca - need clarification again - yes it is a dead horse
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2009, 10:19:49 AM »
How I see it... and have ruled on in the past at Tournaments- which no one ever had issue with...

Form Fire Team costs an action.  That action can be explained fluff-wise as the trooper making sure he has enough ammo and stuff prior to leaving the unit he is with.  In  the case of the Orca HMG gunner, its popping the clasps and making sure he grabs an extra ammo belt.

NOT ALL GUNNERS need to disembark the same turn or declare such activity.  So in essence.... a 3 Orca unit with three gunners can become 2 to 4 separate elements, if the gunners choose to join together or run lone-wolf in addition to the Orca unit.

I  think if you declare all gunners using their FF ability, you can make the determination if they are three separate dudes, a 2-man and a loner or 1 three-man section.

I have found it does not affect game play all that much... as a good general will plan for engagement at least one to two turns ahead.  Or so I think anyway.

As I don't have this unit, I never used them... though I have faced them many times.
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Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Orca - need clarification again - yes it is a dead horse
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2009, 03:50:54 PM »
Quote from: Archer link=topic=5983.msg47021#msg47021 date=
In  the case of the Orca HMG gunner, its popping the clasps and making sure he grabs an extra ammo belt.

John, with all due respect and whatnot, the Orca gunners already spend two AC's to disembark because they are popping clasps, etc.  Every other model only spends one AC to disembark a vehicle.  I am beginning to see Micmellon's point, but would caution him to the following:

 - Form Fireteam is no minor Special Ability; it allows a unit or units to become detached from the squad to which they once belonged, affording the player as many extra activations as models - a huge advantage in any game that involves alternating turns/activations.
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline Archer

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Re: Orca - need clarification again - yes it is a dead horse
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2009, 05:51:14 PM »
Quote from: Archer link=topic=5983.msg47021#msg47021 date=
In  the case of the Orca HMG gunner, its popping the clasps and making sure he grabs an extra ammo belt.

John, with all due respect and whatnot, the Orca gunners already spend two AC's to disembark because they are popping clasps, etc.  Every other model only spends one AC to disembark a vehicle.  I am beginning to see Micmellon's point, but would caution him to the following:


Dave, I agree there...  I  think two actions is one too many but I didn't come up with that rule.

As for michellon's point,  I see it as well... but for the action to cost nothing to do, I can think of a few squads with such models sporting FF that would be come deadlier.  More than a few, now I think of it.
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