Berserk & Fear Question

[joshuaslater]

I'm still undecided, y'all.  Because if the fear test is a perfect, you would accept the hatred to gain the bonus, and the fumble would mean the models are so shaken they can't act.  So I feel there has to be a penalty for failure; losing one action and HAVING to go Berserk, or success, remaining at your current DEF and being able to go Berserk when you want.  It just seems balanced.  Otherwise, why would you have to DECLARE you're going into a berserk state at all?  You could have your unit go Berserk, knowing a fear causing model is approaching, and not have to make the roll, but getting to declare it after you've failed the save just seems cheesy.  I'm hoping to somehow rope Thom into this discussion.

[Coil]

Well, there could be reasons that they do not want to go Berserk. If they have already activated and there's an enemy unit nearby I wouldn't want the DEF penalty.

[joshuaslater]

This opens more questions.  If they fumble on the fear check and can take NO actions, will Berserk trump that?  And what happens if they fail and they're still on Wait?  Aaarrgh!   

@Coil and Everybody---thanks for all the discussion.  Cheers.

[masherking]

I'll take a crack at this.

This opens more questions. If they fumble on the fear check and can take NO actions, will Berserk trump that? And what happens if they fail and they're still on Wait? Aaarrgh!

@Coil and Everybody---thanks for all the discussion. Cheers.

I would say yes berserk will trump even a 1 rolled on a fear check.
berserk takes no actions to use and once used fear has no effect.

As for the wait thing. All I would say is a model has the opition to go berserk when its activation comes up. models who are on wait can go berserk (if they pass LD when it applies). if you somehow were able to take their wait action away they cant go berserk But then why would you need or want to.

I dont have my rulebook in front of me. I dont know how FEAR affects WAIT. according to the one poster it doesnt but I cant confrim that.

these are just my thoughts
I would see what coil and wedge say for a "offical" answer.

[Coil]

I dont have my rulebook in front of me. I dont know how FEAR affects WAIT. according to the one poster it doesnt but I cant confrim that.

Fear does not affect Wait. See page 77 last sentence of the top paragraph in the right column.

[joshuaslater]

It just feels asymmetrical--I understand you can't go berserk when panicked, I understand nothing is mentioned about fear--it's just a matter of what comes first.  In this case the failed fear check has apparently little result other than to force the player to go berserk.  I think some compromise is in order--losing one action and then going berserk. 

[masherking]

but by doing that you lessen the ablilites of a model whom you paid points for to fight off fear causeing models ( who happen more often then not to be huge honking beast).

   Berserk vrs. fear is not a game ender. It is not as bad as you might think. It's just now models like the blood totem "might" not have such a "easy" time killing berserking units.
    Like it was said before there are already flaws built into berserk, strong flaws. and fear still affects something like 85%(off the top my head) units in game with no chance to stop beyond passing the fear check.

  In the end all it really does is give a new level of tactics to add to your game play.
play it out for yourself and see. Dalton (i believe thats his name) is a good player he'll find way to stop those pesky berserkers.

 josh I look forward to our next battle.(it was my first time fighting against dwarves)
      the first one was loads of fun.

[joshuaslater]

Steve--I will DEFINITELY play my Wolf Clan Axe boys with no fear of a failed fear check against Dalton, believe me, but my rules persnickity-ness really stems from wanting to see this game edited and clarified for the future supplement.  Here's a prime example--in the description of the Wolf Legion it reads they are skilled in "gorilla warfare"!  They're not apes!  It should be "guerrilla warfare".  It's the grammar, spelling, punctuation, and ABOVE all else, the clarity of the rules.  I've broken Thom's balls about this already; he could tell ya some stories! 
Cheers.

[Coil]

Here's a prime example--in the description of the Wolf Legion it reads they are skilled in "gorilla warfare"!

It seems you are not aware of the Ape Clan, which lost to the Wolves back in the dwarven civil war.

I've broken Thom's balls about this already; he could tell ya some stories!

Do we really want to know about you and Thom's balls? 

[masherking]

you know a Ape Clan would rule.
and there totem would be like a chronopia version of King Kong
damn that would be kool.

lightly armed jungle dwarves. Man the wacky units one could come up with.

[joshuaslater]

Now Coil's breakin' my balls, and masherkings gone apes..t!  Thanks for the laughs guys.  Speaking of ball-breakin' I'm gettin' mine crushed here at the job.  I would be in an insane asylum without y'all.  Cheers.

[Wedge]

If you look in the army lists there are a lot more units that cause fear than units that can go berserk.  Changing the rules to put another limitation on the fewer berserking models would be more detrimental than accepting the fact that a few berserking units just don’t care about fear when they start foaming at the mouth.

Bottom line:  Berserk is a special ability that trumps the effects of fear when a player declares his unit is going berserk.

[Ruther]

thats prolly the best solution

[joshuaslater]

@Wedge--cool, that's the way I'll play it, but continuing the discussion/devil's advocacy, what happens if this same unit with Berserk suffers from a DREAD causing model that comes into range, and they fail their save? 

This whole discussion has centered on the fear/dread causing model moving in first--I'd like to see where this goes. 

[masherking]

berserk has no power over dread