Berserk & Fear Question

[Coil]

But you may not charge the fear inducing model, not even by going berserk, you still suffer from the restrictments of fear, even while being berserk it does not remove your fear counter...

I still say that since you are Immune to Fear you do not suffer the effects of Fear any longer while Berserk. So you can charge the guy who got you afraid.

[joshuaslater]

What I'm thinkin' is that my Axemen will lose one action, period.  Then they can go Berserk and take ONE action.  At this point they are immune to fear.  There has to be a result of a failed fear check to go with the success.  If they 20 out on the Fear check, there's NOTHING they can do, and if they perfect 1 they gain hatred.  I think losing an action sounds right, but then they can go berserk and charge whatever's nearest.  On their next turn they will either still be Berserk, requiring no roll, or they will have killed whatever they charged, requiring a new save, or they will have killed the fear causing model and have no worries.  This sounds like a reasonable compromise.  Otherwise Berserk is a more powerful Immune to Fear. 

My head is pounding.   I'm leaving my office to go home.  Walk the dogs, eat some dinner.  Paint some Swamp Goblins.  I'll see how this cooks up tomorrow morning.  Cheers.

[masherking]

On a small note.
it is not always best to go berserk.

joshua's  question "why bother to induce fear to a berserk model?"
 to force him to go berserk is my answer. As kool as it is, it still is a +4 to def to hit. (with dark axes its a +6, +7 on a charge)
and if the model is on wait you force him lose a that wait action (I think fear does that?).

thats why the dark tusk totem is neat with both cause fear and berserk.
I can chose when the totem plays the berserk card because cause fear makes it immune to fear.

Berserk is a neat SA but its not all roses and smart player can make use of it flaws

just some food for thought.

[Wedge]

One thing you have to remember...

Special abilities ALWAYS take precedence over the basic rules.  It's the exception with every game you play.  In a card game the rules may say, "You cannot take more than one action per turn".  But a special card says, "Play this card and you can take two actions this turn".  Extend that same concpetual idea with Fear and Berserk.  Fear says you cannot charge the model that causes fear.  But Berserk says you are immune to fear when declaring berserk.  This is a typical case of a special ability over-riding a general rule.

Berserking models are just THAT GOOD.  That is why there are so few of them.  If an Ogre moves within 4" of a squad of Dragonskull warriors and they fail their fear test they can on their very next activation declare berserk, remove the fear marker, and charge the Ogre.  They are so worked up in their berserk frenzy that they have thrown caution to the wind.

As Coil pointed out, Berserk mentions that you cannot berserk while panicked but it mentions nothing of fear.  I think this was intentional.

While it may not sound realistic to some of you, it sounds completely feasible to me.  Furthermore, there are bad things with berserk... you cannot deviate to another target until the target of the berserk is dead and your Def modifier suffers as well.  A clarification in the FAQ would be helpful on this subject, but I think the ruling is pretty clear.

[Southpaw]

I agree with you 100% Wedge.

Let's summarize the main points of contention here.

1. Berserk, by it's wording, does not require a Charge to use, so thus can be used outside of Close Combat.

2. Models that are Berserk are Immune to Fear.

3. Berserk states that you may not go Berserk while *panicked*, but it makes no mention of Fear, or any other Morale state.


So, if a model with Berserk happens to fail a Fear test, they can then go Berserk if they choose. At that point, the model becomes Immune to Fear. When the Berserk ends, assuming the model is still alive, it will be subject to Fear at that point.

It may sound like a loophole, but as masherking and others very skillfully pointed out, Berserk does have flaws, and they can be HUGE ones if planned out carefully.

[Nikodemus]

Ok, I could live with that, but have one question:

Isn`t it true, that all models have to be Berserl to become immune to panic and fear?

So if my let`s say my 3 berserkers have failed their fear test. I activate them and berserker nr.1 declares berserk, then he wants to charge the fear inducing model, my opponent could (rightfully imo) stop me, because nr 2. and 3 are not Berserk (yet).
So would I have to activate model 1 declare berserk, move it around, then do so again with model 2 , and then finally with model 3 I can charge the fear inducing after I declare Berserk?

Sorry to be a pest, but this interpretation of the rules contradicts the rule as it is stated in the book imo...

What do you think?

[Anomander_Rake]

Isn`t it true, that all models have to be Berserl to become immune to panic and fear?

So if my let`s say my 3 berserkers have failed their fear test. I activate them and berserker nr.1 declares berserk, then he wants to charge the fear inducing model, my opponent could (rightfully imo) stop me, because nr 2. and 3 are not Berserk (yet).
So would I have to activate model 1 declare berserk, move it around, then do so again with model 2 , and then finally with model 3 I can charge the fear inducing after I declare Berserk?

Sorry to be a pest, but this interpretation of the rules contradicts the rule as it is stated in the book imo...

You are right, all model in a warband have to go berserk. BUT you are wrong, too. Whenever a unit/warband has to roll for morale it rolls always for the whole group! So when you roll a miss, all members of your warband will succumb to fear...

just my two cents...

Anomander Rake

[Anomander_Rake]

and if the model is on wait you force him lose a that wait action (I think fear does that?).

NOPE! Fear won't affect your wait counter!

Berserking models are just THAT GOOD.  That is why there are so few of them.  If an Ogre moves within 4" of a squad of Dragonskull warriors and they fail their fear test they can on their very next activation declare berserk, remove the fear marker, and charge the Ogre.  They are so worked up in their berserk frenzy that they have thrown caution to the wind.

Dragonskulls cause fear, so they are immune to fear...

I still say that since you are Immune to Fear you do not suffer the effects of Fear any longer while Berserk. So you can charge the guy who got you afraid.

I fully agree, but will the berserker unit have one or two actions?

just my two cents...

Anomander Rake

[Nikodemus]

You are right, all model in a warband have to go berserk. BUT you are wrong, too. Whenever a unit/warband has to roll for morale it rolls always for the whole group! So when you roll a miss, all members of your warband will succumb to fear...

Sorry, I think you misunderstood me.

Of course the whole warband is affected by fear!

My 3 berserkers are under the effect of fear.
They activate and the first one declares berserk, the other two as they have not activated yet are also under fear but not yet berserk! So, only one mmber of the group of three is berserk!

As the whole unit has to be berserk to be immune to fear what can my first model do? It is not yet immune to fear, so it cannot charge the fear inducing model!

Please clear up this issue for me!

[Anomander_Rake]

My 3 berserkers are under the effect of fear.
They activate and the first one declares berserk, the other two as they have not activated yet are also under fear but not yet berserk! So, only one mmber of the group of three is berserk!

As the whole unit has to be berserk to be immune to fear what can my first model do? It is not yet immune to fear, so it cannot charge the fear inducing model!

Please clear up this issue for me!

Ok, now I understand your question. Before you move the first model of your warband you say, that they (the whole warband) will go berserk. At this point all of them are in berserker rage no matter if they are succumbed to fear or not. And then you move the first model...and so on and on and on...

just my two cents...

Anomander Rake

[Nikodemus]

Ah, now I see! 

Ok, I can live with that!

Thanks for the explanation...

[joshuaslater]

Bringin' it all back to "What's the point of the fear test at all?"  Do they still lose that valuable action, only getting to go berserk for one action?

[Anomander_Rake]

Bringin' it all back to "What's the point of the fear test at all?"  Do they still lose that valuable action, only getting to go berserk for one action?

I thought about this one some time now...I don't think that they loose an action. 'cause you state that you go berserk before the unit activates, and from that point on they are immune to fear...it is like another unit (individual) stops by and rallies the unit...with the positive check they would get the second action back as well...

just my two cents...

Anomander Rake

[Nikodemus]

I agree with anomander, either all of the effects of fear apply (not being able to charge the fear inducing model and losing one action) or you are immune to fear (as seems to be the consensus now) while on berserk, and therefore do not suffer from fear. As going berserk does not require an action this is done before any models are moved, thus all actions are available to the berserk models.

[joshuaslater]

I guess the most concise way to phrase it would be "If a model with Berserk fails a fear test, they immediately have to go Berserk, or suffer the effects of Fear."  Sound okay?