Author Topic: Break away combinable with Charge  (Read 17678 times)

Offline Alchas

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #30 on: July 10, 2009, 07:51:38 AM »
Yes they both share that they do not need to test for breaking. But that do not make the Mounted Hussar able to use the Vehicle rules, specially since it's not a vehicle. Skin and living tissue vs Metal and gears.

Unless it's otherwise stated the ordinary rules should apply for Mounted Hussars and Breaking Away, making them count as any other troop and apply to the Break Away rule, with the SR that let them automatically break CC if they want, but they must first say they do so. And doing that is a action.

Meanwhile Vehicles got a special rule that states they can simply use a move action to break combat. This rule relating to that they ain't living beings but machines.

All other units must spend a Break Away Action to break Combat, even if they get a Automatic success in doing so. :)

It is otherwise stated, in the form of a special rule. Which is very similar to the vehicle rules. So they don't work like other troops in that instance. There is really nothing saying why MH's need to dedicate an action to breaking away if vehicles do not

And for mounted models, the closest model not in CC becomes the model they just left.
So they would just keep bouncing against that model. That seems to violate the intent of the rules (yes, I know we are arguing the letter of the rules, but sometimes it's good to take a look at what that would produce, and what might be intended).

Vehicles, on the other hand, should just have a rule that gets rid of the notion of Breaking Away totally. Currently both the vehicle and the people attacking it in CC can just walk away, no break test roll required for either. That would imply that vehicles just are incapable of getting locked in CC. It isn't that they should auto-succeed in a Break Away, they should never have to contemplate Breaking Away, they should just move. You should not be able to hold a vehicle in CC. (This would also solve the problem with the tangle chains too).

Yes, but when considering the intent of the rules, keep in mind that logically cavalry work much like vehicles when it comes to mobility. They too wouldn't usually have to worry about who was attacking them in CC, which is reflected in the MH's special rule. That's how cavalry charges worked. Cavalry rarely stopped to fight the enemy unless they were cornered, instead they kept charging other enemies since they were big and fast enough to not (usually) have to worry about the enemy's counterattacks.

It's really quite clear to me, but to avoid cluttering the thread by repeating myself any more, I'll just drop out of this.  ;D

Offline aoi cobalt

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #31 on: July 10, 2009, 08:53:29 AM »
And for mounted models, the closest model not in CC becomes the model they just left.
So they would just keep bouncing against that model. That seems to violate the intent of the rules (yes, I know we are arguing the letter of the rules, but sometimes it's good to take a look at what that would produce, and what might be intended).

Vehicles, on the other hand, should just have a rule that gets rid of the notion of Breaking Away totally. Currently both the vehicle and the people attacking it in CC can just walk away, no break test roll required for either. That would imply that vehicles just are incapable of getting locked in CC. It isn't that they should auto-succeed in a Break Away, they should never have to contemplate Breaking Away, they should just move. You should not be able to hold a vehicle in CC. (This would also solve the problem with the tangle chains too).

Yes, but when considering the intent of the rules, keep in mind that logically cavalry work much like vehicles when it comes to mobility. They too wouldn't usually have to worry about who was attacking them in CC, which is reflected in the MH's special rule. That's how cavalry charges worked. Cavalry rarely stopped to fight the enemy unless they were cornered, instead they kept charging other enemies since they were big and fast enough to not (usually) have to worry about the enemy's counterattacks.

It's really quite clear to me, but to avoid cluttering the thread by repeating myself any more, I'll just drop out of this.  ;D

No problem with your comments. I do understand what you want to do. Currently, the rules don't allow what you want to do as cleanly as you wish.

And didn't cav traditionally pull back, reform, and recharge?
That would be the same as 1 charge action, one break away action, and 1 charge action.
And it is worth noting that all the rest of the cav units in the game don't have an auto-break away. So that factor isn't part of being cav, it's just the MH special mount rules.
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Offline Enker

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #32 on: July 10, 2009, 09:07:05 AM »
Ok, for vehicels it is totally clear.
They can move away from CC and fire in the same action.
The rulebook clearly says this on page 92. no matter what you are argumenting.

For the mounted its more complicated as i have thought.
The charge action is not a action for itself, it is a combined action of a move and an attack action.
But:
Rulebook page 49
"Unless otherwise stated in a model's profile, a model
must Charge the closest enemy model within its LOS. The only
exception to this rule is if the closest enemy model is already
engaged in Close Combat with another model."
So if you may charge away from CC you have to attack the same model again since it is the closest one!
You only can charge away from CC to another model, if you have two models in CC at the current model.

But this doesnt aswerif the auto break away is an move or an attack action for the mounted.
It only answers how it works if it is considert a move action

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Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #33 on: July 10, 2009, 03:34:28 PM »
Quote from: Enker link=topic=5890.msg45969#msg45969 date=
For the mounted its more complicated as i have thought.
The charge action is not a action for itself, it is a combined action of a move and an attack action.
But:
Rulebook page 49
"Unless otherwise stated in a model's profile, a model
must Charge the closest enemy model within its LOS. The only
exception to this rule is if the closest enemy model is already
engaged in Close Combat with another model."
So if you may charge away from CC you have to attack the same model again since it is the closest one!
You only can charge away from CC to another model, if you have two models in CC at the current model.

But this doesnt aswerif the auto break away is an move or an attack action for the mounted.
It only answers how it works if it is considert a move action

A Charge must be declared prior to a Move Action.  In order to Charge a model, the attacker must have line of sight, and be able to Move into base to base contact with the target.  Therefore, if a players declares that the auto-breaking model is going to conduct a Charge, has the new target model in LOS (prior to breaking from CC), and can legally Move into base to base contact with the target, then the Charge takes place.

Does that clear it up?
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

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Offline Enker

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #34 on: July 11, 2009, 01:38:27 AM »
Quote from: Enker link=topic=5890.msg45969#msg45969 date=
For the mounted its more complicated as i have thought.
The charge action is not a action for itself, it is a combined action of a move and an attack action.
But:
Rulebook page 49
"Unless otherwise stated in a model's profile, a model
must Charge the closest enemy model within its LOS. The only
exception to this rule is if the closest enemy model is already
engaged in Close Combat with another model."
So if you may charge away from CC you have to attack the same model again since it is the closest one!
You only can charge away from CC to another model, if you have two models in CC at the current model.

But this doesnt aswerif the auto break away is an move or an attack action for the mounted.
It only answers how it works if it is considert a move action

A Charge must be declared prior to a Move Action.  In order to Charge a model, the attacker must have line of sight, and be able to Move into base to base contact with the target.  Therefore, if a players declares that the auto-breaking model is going to conduct a Charge, has the new target model in LOS (prior to breaking from CC), and can legally Move into base to base contact with the target, then the Charge takes place.

Does that clear it up?

No, because you have to charge the nearest target and that is the one you are leaving by autobreak. So you have to charge him again.
And thats so wirded that I think it isnt possible to break away and charge in the same action
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Offline micmellon

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #35 on: July 11, 2009, 01:54:08 AM »
I think it is maybe possible as long two units are in CC with the target. Because then you can ignore your last target. Otherwise I would say NO! You can't run away from a enemy and run back to hit him in the same action.
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Pax

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #36 on: July 11, 2009, 01:55:26 AM »
Quote from: Enker link=topic=5890.msg45969#msg45969 date=
For the mounted its more complicated as i have thought.
The charge action is not a action for itself, it is a combined action of a move and an attack action.
But:
Rulebook page 49
"Unless otherwise stated in a model's profile, a model
must Charge the closest enemy model within its LOS. The only
exception to this rule is if the closest enemy model is already
engaged in Close Combat with another model."
So if you may charge away from CC you have to attack the same model again since it is the closest one!
You only can charge away from CC to another model, if you have two models in CC at the current model.

But this doesnt aswerif the auto break away is an move or an attack action for the mounted.
It only answers how it works if it is considert a move action

A Charge must be declared prior to a Move Action.  In order to Charge a model, the attacker must have line of sight, and be able to Move into base to base contact with the target.  Therefore, if a players declares that the auto-breaking model is going to conduct a Charge, has the new target model in LOS (prior to breaking from CC), and can legally Move into base to base contact with the target, then the Charge takes place.

Does that clear it up?

No, because you have to charge the nearest target and that is the one you are leaving by autobreak. So you have to charge him again.
And thats so wirded that I think it isnt possible to break away and charge in the same action

It's valid, if the target your first in CC with is attacked by another one of your troops. So from what dmcgee1 say if you have:

2 mounted hussars in CC with 1 enemy.
Then 1 mounted hussar is able to perform a auto-break away and charge another enemy, using the rule to ignore a enemy in close combat with another of your units.

Offline Btg

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #37 on: July 11, 2009, 07:01:57 AM »
I was just thinking...

I dont think you can declare a charge action while in CC, and if that is true, the action you spend getting away from CC with auto-break can never be a charge... but hey, what do I know  ::)

Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #38 on: July 11, 2009, 08:44:31 AM »
Quote from: Enker link=topic=5890.msg45997#msg45997 date=
Quote from: dmcgee1 link=topic=5890.msg45994#msg45994 date=
Quote from: Enker link=topic=5890.msg45969#msg45969 date=
For the mounted its more complicated as i have thought.
The charge action is not a action for itself, it is a combined action of a move and an attack action.
But:
Rulebook page 49
"Unless otherwise stated in a model's profile, a model
must Charge the closest enemy model within its LOS. The only
exception to this rule is if the closest enemy model is already
engaged in Close Combat with another model."
So if you may charge away from CC you have to attack the same model again since it is the closest one!
You only can charge away from CC to another model, if you have two models in CC at the current model.

But this doesnt aswerif the auto break away is an move or an attack action for the mounted.
It only answers how it works if it is considert a move action

A Charge must be declared prior to a Move Action.  In order to Charge a model, the attacker must have line of sight, and be able to Move into base to base contact with the target.  Therefore, if a players declares that the auto-breaking model is going to conduct a Charge, has the new target model in LOS (prior to breaking from CC), and can legally Move into base to base contact with the target, then the Charge takes place.

Does that clear it up?

No, because you have to charge the nearest target and that is the one you are leaving by autobreak. So you have to charge him again.
And thats so wirded that I think it isnt possible to break away and charge in the same action

When you declare the charge while in CC, with the intent to autobreak, the model that you are in CC with may be ignore, as you are, already engaged in CC.  It is not only possible that way, it is the only way you can break from CC and charge.  This also applies to simply breaking from CC, not just auto-break.
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #39 on: July 11, 2009, 08:47:53 AM »
Quote from: Pax link=topic=5890.msg45999#msg45999 date=
Quote from: Enker link=topic=5890.msg45997#msg45997 date=
Quote from: dmcgee1 link=topic=5890.msg45994#msg45994 date=
Quote from: Enker link=topic=5890.msg45969#msg45969 date=
For the mounted its more complicated as i have thought.
The charge action is not a action for itself, it is a combined action of a move and an attack action.
But:
Rulebook page 49
"Unless otherwise stated in a model's profile, a model
must Charge the closest enemy model within its LOS. The only
exception to this rule is if the closest enemy model is already
engaged in Close Combat with another model."
So if you may charge away from CC you have to attack the same model again since it is the closest one!
You only can charge away from CC to another model, if you have two models in CC at the current model.

But this doesnt aswerif the auto break away is an move or an attack action for the mounted.
It only answers how it works if it is considert a move action

A Charge must be declared prior to a Move Action.  In order to Charge a model, the attacker must have line of sight, and be able to Move into base to base contact with the target.  Therefore, if a players declares that the auto-breaking model is going to conduct a Charge, has the new target model in LOS (prior to breaking from CC), and can legally Move into base to base contact with the target, then the Charge takes place.

Does that clear it up?

No, because you have to charge the nearest target and that is the one you are leaving by autobreak. So you have to charge him again.
And thats so wirded that I think it isnt possible to break away and charge in the same action

It's valid, if the target your first in CC with is attacked by another one of your troops. So from what dmcgee1 say if you have:

2 mounted hussars in CC with 1 enemy.
Then 1 mounted hussar is able to perform a auto-break away and charge another enemy, using the rule to ignore a enemy in close combat with another of your units.

Your description is accurate, but even one Mounted Hussar may auto-break (or any other model wich successfully tests to break from CC) may, indeed, charge another model.

It all comes down to a Move Action that ends in CC - this, by definition, is a Charge.  Charges must be declared.  Nowhere in the rules (of which I am aware) does it state that a Charge may not be declared while in CC.  If one can perform an auto-break or test to break from CC, then one may perform a charge if able to break from CC.
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Pax

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #40 on: July 11, 2009, 09:16:03 AM »
hmm, but should not the enemy you just left be the closest enemy as soon as you break CC?

as soon as your not in CC with the enemy, the enemy will be free and the closest target. Unless you have another unit fighting the enemy your unit is in Base to Base contact.

Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #41 on: July 11, 2009, 10:41:23 AM »
That's way too literal of a translation of Target Priority.  The Charge is declared while still in CC, therefore the model with which you are in CC may be ignored.  Moving away from it does not, then, make it the closest enemy model for purposes of Target Priority.

The clearest way that I know how to say this is the following:

It is perfectly legal to be in CC, declare a Charge against an enemy model model that is in LOS, break from CC(whether by test or auto-break) and, subsequently, Charge the targeted model.
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline micmellon

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #42 on: July 11, 2009, 02:45:48 PM »
Just one thing. Does this work for the Fenris bike in the same way or is it no problem in anyway because it is a vehicle? As far as I know the Fenris is the only 100% Close Combat Vehicle.

The Fenris bike can attack after a 1" movement the target it just left (drive by attack) and because of this it can ignore the first target (still in CC caused by the drive by attack) and can attack the next target. Sounds correct in my opinion.
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Offline Lopis

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #43 on: July 12, 2009, 02:56:41 AM »
And it is worth noting that all the rest of the cav units in the game don't have an auto-break away. So that factor isn't part of being cav, it's just the MH special mount rules.


thatīs not the full truth....
Dragonriders can go into the CC with their Naginataīs up to one inch away from the enemy model.
Since they arent in B2B then when trying to leave the Target, they only leave....

Further we are talking here of all the troops leaving CC, inlcuding the ones that do it automatically as flyers and the ones that simply get lucky by rolling. You have to be able to reach B2B, thatīs important.


Just one thing. Does this work for the Fenris bike in the same way or is it no problem in anyway because it is a vehicle? As far as I know the Fenris is the only 100% Close Combat Vehicle.
The Fenris bike can attack after a 1" movement the target it just left (drive by attack) and because of this it can ignore the first target (still in CC caused by the drive by attack) and can attack the next target. Sounds correct in my opinion.

Not so easy.

Since the Fenris Bike is a vehicle you leave and be done with your last target.
Now you want to hit the last target again using the special rule of charging for FenrisBikes within one inch of the model (not that you lose the strenght of the vehicle for the charge if you donīt move at least.
 3".
I would say that this doesnīt work, because you leave the target and thus the facing isnīt right. you canīt attack an enemy in your rear facing, remember vehiclas arenīt allowed to make turns freely.

BUT, have a look here, bolding the important parts:

The driver of a Fenris may move and attack an
enemy within one inch of the bike with hls
sword using a single action. The attack my be
launched at any time during the move. lf the 1
fenris moves a minimum of 3 inches before
the attack, the damage is determined by using
the vehicle's STR instead of the drivers, this is
the unit's primary attack. If the fenris has
adaquate movement remaining atter its attack
to reach basecontacl with another model, it
may attempt a secondary natural attack by
rarnmlng the new target. This is effectively a
charge, with a successful CC roll Indicating the
ram was elfective.

So if you phrase it otherwise it works  ;D

Just turn and hit, drive on and ram......

You would lose the strenght of the Bike anyway if wanting to hit the model you leave.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 03:27:12 AM by Lopis »
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Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #44 on: July 12, 2009, 05:48:15 AM »
Quote from: micmellon link=topic=5890.msg46009#msg46009 date=
Just one thing. Does this work for the Fenris bike in the same way or is it no problem in anyway because it is a vehicle? As far as I know the Fenris is the only 100% Close Combat Vehicle.

The Fenris bike can attack after a 1" movement the target it just left (drive by attack) and because of this it can ignore the first target (still in CC caused by the drive by attack) and can attack the next target. Sounds correct in my opinion.

As a vehicle, it may auto-break.  I am not sure what it is that you are masking?
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!