Author Topic: Break away combinable with Charge  (Read 20817 times)

Offline Enker

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2009, 11:16:40 PM »
You have three different actions as defined by the rulebook.
Move, Charge and Break Away.
You cannot combine any two of these Actions.
So a model is not able to do a break away and a charge action in one action.
So far so good.

Now the vehicles.
Vehicles do not make a break away action if they are leaving CC, they do a move action.
Rulebook page 91
"When confronted by a close combat weapon that might actually breach the armor, vehicles may simply use a move action to drive away
and automatically break close combat with the enemy."

So a vehicle can move away from CC and fire in the same action as defined per vehicle rules.

Mounted Hussars:
Mounted Hussars are able to auto brake away from CC.
It isnt mentioned if it is a brake away action or a move action (accourding to vehicles).
But that doesnt matter. You cannot combine either a break away action or a move action with a charge action.
They are different types of actions.
So a Mounted Hussar cannot auto brake away and charge in one action. 
« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 11:29:29 PM by Enker »
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Pax

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2009, 12:48:01 AM »
note on Mounted Hussars:
It's been stated that the mount and rider must do the same action I believe, else it had been valid I believe. Riders is somewhere in between foot soldiers and vehicles, they are able to automatically break CC, but isn't able to perform a move and fire action at the same time.

Quote
Page 40: Mounted Troops and Actions
Q: Can a mounted trooper have the mount move and then the rider shoot, like a multi-crewed vehicle?
A: Under normal conditions, if a mount makes a move action, the rider is assumed to be controlling/steering it and thus uses an action as well. A rider may not, normally, fire while its mount moves.

Offline Lopis

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2009, 02:35:30 AM »
1. Sure they canīt shoot.Thats clear

2. a move that ends in B2B contact is a charge.
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Pax

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2009, 02:41:46 AM »
but must be a declared charge before movement, while a break away must be a declared break away to let a enemy try and keep you in close combat. The Dinos just let you automatically win the roll. :)

and doing both of these actions cost 1 AC

The list of actions possible to do is the following according to the list:
Move
MP
Climb
Jump
Attack (Melee or Ranged)
Break Away
Aim
Channel
Concentrate
Spot
Rally
Giver Orders Wait

Under Attack (Melee and Ranged) will we find the Charge Action, which while it is a action that gives you movement it counts as a attack action.

This while Break away is a action that let you break combat and move away from your enemy.

Both cost 1 AC to do, and while Mounted Hussars is able to automatically break combat, that mean they are only able to automatically win the move away contest Roll  and still need to perform the move away part of up to their full movement. If you want to break away, in either form, you must declare that you will do so and spend 1 action doing so.

If then the unit let you fire and move at the same time, a skimmer for example, then that is fine it can do that, but for the Mounted Hussar that is a rider it require 1 AC spent by both mount and Rider to break away and they. Once they have moved away you must once again declare a new action and attack, in this case charge.

You are only able to perform one action at a time after all with 1 AC, if not stated otherwise by the rules.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 02:59:39 AM by Pax »

Offline Alchas

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2009, 05:36:45 AM »
That doesn't make any sense. There is nothing in the rules saying that the auto break away vehicles can do, and the auto break away mounted hussars can do should be treated differently. See this thread btw.

Either breaking away is an move action or it isn't. If it is, it should be able to be used for charging, and for vehicles shooting. If not, then it can only be used for retreating.


You have three different actions as defined by the rulebook.
Move, Charge and Break Away.
You cannot combine any two of these Actions.
So a model is not able to do a break away and a charge action in one action.
So far so good.

Mounted Hussars:
Mounted Hussars are able to auto brake away from CC.
It isnt mentioned if it is a brake away action or a move action (accourding to vehicles).
But that doesnt matter. You cannot combine either a break away action or a move action with a charge action.
They are different types of actions.
So a Mounted Hussar cannot auto brake away and charge in one action. 


As has been said before, move actions and charges can be combined since that's how charge is used. Again, the auto break away mounted hussars can do seems to be the same deal as it is for vehicles, so whether or not that's considered a move action should apply both to the mounted hussars and the vehicles.

but must be a declared charge before movement, while a break away must be a declared break away to let a enemy try and keep you in close combat. The Dinos just let you automatically win the roll. :)

Similarly a vehicle would have to have to declare that it is breaking away before movement, and if it is going to shoot while moving. So if the MH can't combine retreating and attacking, I don't see why vehicles could.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 05:44:24 AM by Alchas »

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #20 on: July 10, 2009, 06:09:27 AM »
The part where Mounted Hussars and Vehicles differs is the rules about each type.

For mounted units it's written they must spend their actions simultaneous and focus on the same action. So Mount can't move while Rider shoots. They either both move or both attack.

Vehicles on the other hand got the following special rules:

A Vehicle is able to use a move action to break from Close Combat no matter what it is.

While performing a Move action the vehicle if single crewed is able to fire.

While performing a move action with a multi-crew vehicle, all crew members must perform their actions before the drivers next.

Both gives the opportunity to move away and fire at the same time as is written.

It is written that they are able to spend a move action to break away, and while doing a move action they may also fire.

This is written on page 92.

For mounts it's stated (on page 42) that the rider and mount must perform the same action.

On Mounted Hussars it's only stated as a Special Rules that the Mount is able to automatically break from CC. But to break from CC you need to perform the action break away which results in a move, in this case which let you automatically succeed the roll and you move.

To try and sum my point up:

1. Mounted troop is in close combat.
2. Spends 1 action to break away, because of special rule there is no opposing roll that would let the enemy keep it at bay.
3. The mounted troop is granted it's MV in inches to go anywhere it like. This must be spent by both rider and Mount to perform the Movement/Break Away.

Note: This is still 1 action point spent to break away, it's not 1 action point spent to Attack.
If you don't declare you break away, which is a action, your still stuck in close combat and can't move away. And while in Base to Base contact with a enemy you can not charge.

1. Vehicle is in close combat.
2. Spends 1 Action to perform a Drive action as stated by the rules, which let it automatically break CC and move away.
3. Since it's 1 Drive action it is also given the opportunity to fire it's weapon as stated by the rules with vehicles and Move Actions.

Note: This is 1 Action point spent to perform a Drive action, a special action for Vehicles. In essence the vehicles Move action but with it's own special rules.

Now just for note: This is how it seems for me when I read the rules, it is my belief how things should work given the information I got. :)

Offline Alchas

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2009, 06:37:33 AM »
That's where you are wrong Pax. It never says vehicles use a move action to break away from CC. The phrasing is quite similar to that of the mounted hussars, though not identical. There is however nothing to indicate that the way they are automatically breaking away is different from the other. Both rules mention "breaking away" and not simply moving.

Quote from: Warzone: Universe Under Siege, page 91: Vehicles and Close Combat
Vehicles do not need to test to break away from close combat.

Quote from: Warzone: Universe Under Siege, page 208: Venusian Raptor Mount entry
May automatically break from CC.

Also the way they use actions is irrelevant. No one's arguing that mounted hussars should be able to shoot while moving. The point is whether or not breaking away is a move action. MH's should be able to charge on a move action, and vehicles should be able to shoot on a move action. But if it isn't a move action, neither can do those things.

Pax

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2009, 06:44:40 AM »
#4 on page 91:

Quote
When confronted by a close combat weapon that might actually breach the armor, vehicles may simply use a move action to drive away, and automatically break close combat with the enemy.

Offline Alchas

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2009, 06:50:10 AM »
Fair enough, but that only implies that automatically breaking away is considered a move action. The actual phrasing of the vehicles' auto break away rule is still very similar to the mounted hussars' auto break away rule, and there is nothing in that quote to imply the rules would be different from each other.  I guess it should be considered a move action for mounted hussars as well then.

Pax

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2009, 06:54:37 AM »
I find it that the fact they write out the rule different from the break away action all other none vehicle units got to do makes it different?

The Mounted Hussars got it easier to break away than normal troops since they are able to ignore the roll, while Vehicles never even goes into the break away action since it's stated in their section of the rules they simply use a move action to leave.

Offline Alchas

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #25 on: July 10, 2009, 07:02:14 AM »
Check the two quotes I provided in the earlier post. It isn't very different at all. Yes, the MH rule isn't written out in as much detail as the vehicle rules and they have no mention of using move actions later on in the ruling. But really, the special rule MHs have doesn't have to be written out in detail, because common sense dictates that their ability should be treated the same way as a vehicle breaking away.

Offline aoi cobalt

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #26 on: July 10, 2009, 07:08:35 AM »
I guess we ned a FAQ team ruling as to Break Away and Charge.
Can you combine Break Away (with the intent to leave CC) with a Charge (with the intent to enter CC)?
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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #27 on: July 10, 2009, 07:11:26 AM »
Yes they both share that they do not need to test for breaking. But that do not make the Mounted Hussar able to use the Vehicle rules, specially since it's not a vehicle. Skin and living tissue vs Metal and gears.

Unless it's otherwise stated the ordinary rules should apply for Mounted Hussars and Breaking Away, making them count as any other troop and apply to the Break Away rule, with the SR that let them automatically break CC if they want, but they must first say they do so. And doing that is a action.

Meanwhile Vehicles got a special rule that states they can simply use a move action to break combat. This rule relating to that they ain't living beings but machines.

All other units must spend a Break Away Action to break Combat, even if they get a Automatic success in doing so. :)

Pax

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #28 on: July 10, 2009, 07:13:32 AM »
I guess we ned a FAQ team ruling as to Break Away and Charge.
Can you combine Break Away (with the intent to leave CC) with a Charge (with the intent to enter CC)?


A ruling on it would be good yes since it seems there is quite a lot of Grey zones in it.

Are you able to combine two actions, Break Away and Charge, if the first is a automatic success?

Offline aoi cobalt

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #29 on: July 10, 2009, 07:31:21 AM »
I guess we ned a FAQ team ruling as to Break Away and Charge.
Can you combine Break Away (with the intent to leave CC) with a Charge (with the intent to enter CC)?


A ruling on it would be good yes since it seems there is quite a lot of Grey zones in it.

Are you able to combine two actions, Break Away and Charge, if the first is a automatic success?

Personally, I don't think so.
It's because of the rules for Charge. You have to see and charge the closest modle not in CC.
Only mounted troops can see 360 for a charge like that, all other models don't see behind them to charge.
And for mounted models, the closest model not in CC becomes the model they just left.
So they would just keep bouncing against that model. That seems to violate the intent of the rules (yes, I know we are arguing the letter of the rules, but sometimes it's good to take a look at what that would produce, and what might be intended).

Vehicles, on the other hand, should just have a rule that gets rid of the notion of Breaking Away totally. Currently both the vehicle and the people attacking it in CC can just walk away, no break test roll required for either. That would imply that vehicles just are incapable of getting locked in CC. It isn't that they should auto-succeed in a Break Away, they should never have to contemplate Breaking Away, they should just move. You should not be able to hold a vehicle in CC. (This would also solve the problem with the tangle chains too).
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