Author Topic: Break away combinable with Charge  (Read 20750 times)

Offline Lopis

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Break away combinable with Charge
« on: July 08, 2009, 02:57:21 AM »
Lets say a Mounted Hussar storms into a squad of Berserkers.
In his first actionchargin the Berserker he doesn´t kill him.

So on his second action he hast to do / can do what:

a) he has to finish off the Berserker with his Machete and his Mount, or
b) he is allowed to auto break-away and charge the next Berserker in the squad
c) he can break away with one action and after that he cam charge again

Problem is, that the two are not absolutely distinct actions.
The Break away is a form of a move-action and the charge is a form of an attack action combined with a move action.... ???
And then the mounted Hussars don´t have to "break away"..., so can they just circle and charge and charge and charge?
« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 03:00:47 AM by Lopis »
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Offline Archer

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2009, 06:44:44 AM »
AS I recall....

THE Auto Breakaway cannot be used to charge someone else as the regular breakaway can't either.

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2009, 11:32:38 AM »
it just let you break away without having to do the opposing rolls. You still have to do the move away part of the break away action.

So:
1 Action charge in and hit.
1 Action to break away without having to roll for it, everyone else got to roll contest rolls of CC + Str +1d20 and win it or remain in CC, action wasted.
1 Action to charge or shot again.

Offline Coil

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2009, 01:19:59 PM »
I would say that you could break away and charge on the same action (provided that you win the roll). A charge is just a move that brings you into base to base with an enemy model. The break away rule allows you to move your MV.

There is a limit to charge though in that you have to charge the closest enemy in LOS (except if that target is already engaged). So unless you can prevent LOS to the model you are breaking away from you wont be able to charge another one since it is closest.

So the way I see it the only way you could break away and charge with the same action would be if the model you are engaged with is engaged in CC with another of your models.

Did that make sense?

Offline Lopis

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2009, 01:32:30 PM »
I would say that you could break away and charge on the same action (provided that you win the roll). A charge is just a move that brings you into base to base with an enemy model. The break away rule allows you to move your MV.

There is a limit to charge though in that you have to charge the closest enemy in LOS (except if that target is already engaged). So unless you can prevent LOS to the model you are breaking away from you wont be able to charge another one since it is closest.

So the way I see it the only way you could break away and charge with the same action would be if the model you are engaged with is engaged in CC with another of your models.

Did that make sense?

Yeah makes sense...

We came to this question in our last game.
I firstly thought it wouldn´t work, but then I took the single actions apart and I see no problem in this case to circle and attack in a charge again since it´s a combined move-action.
You atomatically break LOS with the model you´re leaving if you just turn around (you´ve got only 180° to see; provided you´re not mounted, then it´s 360° and you can´t break LOS).
The the problem would be that you would have to charge the nearest model (if the one you´re leaving is not engaged in CC with another model) which would be the one you´re leaving at the moment, so you would have to charge it again. But it´s a charge and that´s better than a normal Attack.
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Offline Coil

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2009, 02:03:38 PM »
You atomatically break LOS with the model you´re leaving if you just turn around (you´ve got only 180° to see; provided you´re not mounted, then it´s 360° and you can´t break LOS).
Take a look at the LOS rule p.32. LOS is 360°. I thought that just turning would fix things but then I checked the LOS rule to make sure. It would work in Chronopia though since LOS is measured from the front arc there.

Offline Lopis

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2009, 02:32:22 PM »
***** Again i confused the LOS and the Firing Arcs.....
You´re totally right, the just charging again or when already engaged in CC.
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Offline Archer

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2009, 04:54:47 PM »
Brother Coil...  the idea of breaking away is  to GET AWAY from CC so you can shoot someone.  Not to recharge.
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Offline luckyone

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2009, 05:44:10 PM »
Auto break would help in several ways:

Charge bonus, ferocity, and bonus gained from moving into a charge (strength bonus etc)
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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2009, 10:34:55 PM »
I would say that you could break away and charge on the same action (provided that you win the roll). A charge is just a move that brings you into base to base with an enemy model. The break away rule allows you to move your MV.

Isn't Break Away a Attack Action that results in you moving away from a enemy your in CC? Auto-Break away just let you ignore the opposing rolls and leave even if the enemy want to keep you in the fight. Since it's in the Attack Action part of the Rules then it should not count as a Move action even if it includes movement?

Charge as well is a action that is a combination of a move and attack action, you move and get into close combat and it's a Attack Action

 Both states that they cost 1 action to do, and Charge must be declared to be a Charge before you do the movement since it opens up the possibility to counter charge for other units on wait. If Break Away had been a declared Move action perhaps it had been possible to combine but from what I read they are both attack actions that let you move, one away from the enemy and one towards the enemy.

Also... if combining actions like this would be possible would it not open a whole can of worm of other things you could do?

Offline Archer

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2009, 09:51:44 AM »
I would say that you could break away and charge on the same action (provided that you win the roll). A charge is just a move that brings you into base to base with an enemy model. The break away rule allows you to move your MV.

 Both states that they cost 1 action to do, and Charge must be declared to be a Charge before you do the movement since it opens up the possibility to counter charge for other units on wait. If Break Away had been a declared Move action perhaps it had been possible to combine but from what I read they are both attack actions that let you move, one away from the enemy and one towards the enemy.

Also... if combining actions like this would be possible would it not open a whole can of worm of other things you could do?

Correct.

Break-away is a Specific Action.  Normally, one must roll in order to successfully get away.
Auto-break simply negates the roll.

It does NOT mean you can charge on the breakaway.

To use an example....
Wait actions in most instances require a roll to pull off an attack, intercept charge, etc.
Ambush removes the roll to get that ability to do the above.
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Offline Lopis

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2009, 12:49:31 PM »
Yes I understand the distinction, but the problem is:

Break away p. 42:
.......lalalal
The model with the
highest score wins. If the rnodel attempting to Break Away
succeeds, it is moved away from the engaged enemy model up
to its MV in inches.

...lalalalal
--> so a break away is basically a move action away from an opponent, which can be countered by the roll (which isn´t applied for auto break away/vehicles/flyers.... - so we´re on a move action again)

Move actions p. 40:
lalalal....
A Move that brings a model into base-to-base contact
wlth an enemy model is considered a Charge. This particular
Move is covered In greater detail in the "Getting Into cIose
Combat" section

--> so a break away is a move action which could possibly end in B2B contact and thus making it a charge

all the other mentionings I found don´t counter these principles.
They only give additional restrictions as having to attack/charge a nearest model in LOS and so on.

So all models that can leave CC by will either being vehicles or on another basis or getting their breakaway roll should be able to do this....
« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 12:59:39 PM by Lopis »
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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2009, 01:00:25 PM »
Break away gives you a movement yes, but isn't a move action. It's a combat action that results in movement. The opposite combat action of Charge, which let you engage a enemy.

It is listed as a combat action, you still have to decide to break combat after all to grant the opponent the chance to try and stop you. Even if the rule grants you a auto-success on the try it still means you must perform it, you just get the opportunity to do it without the risk.

Also both actions must be declared before you do any movement. and you can't combine two actions into one action.

Offline Alchas

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2009, 07:27:09 PM »
Yes I understand the distinction, but the problem is:

Break away p. 42:
.......lalalal
The model with the
highest score wins. If the rnodel attempting to Break Away
succeeds, it is moved away from the engaged enemy model up
to its MV in inches.

...lalalalal
--> so a break away is basically a move action away from an opponent, which can be countered by the roll (which isn´t applied for auto break away/vehicles/flyers.... - so we´re on a move action again)

Move actions p. 40:
lalalal....
A Move that brings a model into base-to-base contact
wlth an enemy model is considered a Charge. This particular
Move is covered In greater detail in the "Getting Into cIose
Combat" section

--> so a break away is a move action which could possibly end in B2B contact and thus making it a charge

all the other mentionings I found don´t counter these principles.
They only give additional restrictions as having to attack/charge a nearest model in LOS and so on.

So all models that can leave CC by will either being vehicles or on another basis or getting their breakaway roll should be able to do this....

Lopis brings up an intresting point. It also occured to me that whether or not units that can automatically break from CC can charge again, logically would also affect vehicles' ability to fire while moving when breaking from CC.

The way I see it is that either...

Breaking away is a move action. As such it can be used to charge, and vehicles can move and shoot with the action.

OR

Breaking away is a special action. It can't be used to charge, but that also means that vehicles that are engaged in CC with a model and drives away, can't use that action to shoot while moving. (Since it isn't a move action.)

Offline Lopis

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2009, 10:23:03 PM »

Breaking away is a move action. As such it can be used to charge, and vehicles can move and shoot with the action.

OR

Breaking away is a special action. It can't be used to charge, but that also means that vehicles that are engaged in CC with a model and drives away, can't use that action to shoot while moving. (Since it isn't a move action.)

I notice only now that vehicles do that all the time....but yes that hits my explanation and point of view  ;)
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