Author Topic: Break away combinable with Charge  (Read 20707 times)

Offline jjdodger

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #60 on: July 14, 2009, 06:34:47 AM »
My 2 cents: (sigh)

1) You may only perform 1 action at a time. Break-away is an Action. Move is an action. Two seperate actions. On page 49, sec. 8.6.1, "A Charge is a combinatioo Move and Attack action"

2) Under Break-Away, it states that the model may be "moved", not "perform a "Move" action", or "move normally"

3) Flyers, even though they can "Auto-Break", must still spend the action breaking, and thus cannot "Move into a charge". Vehicles do not have such a limitation.

4) Break-Away is an Attack Action, as is Close Combat Attack. Again, only 1 action at a time, please! (unless otherwise stated, ie, charge)

Hope these help, and not pour more fuel onto a burning bonfire!


Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #61 on: July 14, 2009, 02:46:07 PM »
There is no fire, bud.  And, while I'm at it, let me say that I am perfectly capable of being wrong on this - or any other - matter.  Your points are valid and have merit.  I could argue each one, however, and be confident that I am interpreting this rule correctly.

However, in the interest of putting this particular matter to rest, I am going to call in the big guns, and take this to the FAQ Team.  If we are unable to reach concensus, perhaps the matter will be brought to a higher power.

Until then, I am stating that the rule as I have stated thus far is correct, and, if asked to make an official ruling in a tournament, I would play it as such.

Please, do not read anything into that last statement - it is not meant as, "I have ruled - so mote it be."  Rather, read it as, "I believe that I am correct, and cannot make my answer more clear."
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline jjdodger

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #62 on: July 14, 2009, 04:04:54 PM »
no worries, i know what you mean! But, here is an example of what can happen:

Mirrormen v. trenchers.

trenchers activate, and charge the mirrormen, attempting to tie them all up in CC, so that the mirrormen cant just shoot them all on secondary attacks.
a mirrorman can now activate, attempt to break away, and if successful, charge another model. presuming he kills that model on the 1st swing, he can now shoot twice with his pistol at 2 others! all on the 1st action...  and getting a +1/+1 bonus on the 1st attack that he otherwise would not have had, and a target that was once in cc (with him) to shoot at.

This is my issue with it: the room for abusive situations like that.  Granted, mirrormen are quite powerful to begin with... but it still serves as a valid example..

Offline Enker

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #63 on: July 14, 2009, 11:08:15 PM »
no worries, i know what you mean! But, here is an example of what can happen:

Mirrormen v. trenchers.

trenchers activate, and charge the mirrormen, attempting to tie them all up in CC, so that the mirrormen cant just shoot them all on secondary attacks.
a mirrorman can now activate, attempt to break away, and if successful, charge another model. presuming he kills that model on the 1st swing, he can now shoot twice with his pistol at 2 others! all on the 1st action...  and getting a +1/+1 bonus on the 1st attack that he otherwise would not have had, and a target that was once in cc (with him) to shoot at.

This is my issue with it: the room for abusive situations like that.  Granted, mirrormen are quite powerful to begin with... but it still serves as a valid example..

I think for a normal break away the situation is clear. You do a break away action and therefore cannot charge, because it is a different action.

The whole discussion is just about the auto break away (correct me if I'm wrong).
Because the auto break away is for vehicles a move action. So vehicles could simply go out of CC and fire while moving or charge another model (if the vehicle is allowed to charge).
The question is, if the auto break away for e.g Mounted Hussars works the same as for vehicles.

Yes dmcgee1 take it to the big ones.
I can see both possibilites in the rules here. It auto break away with charge works or not.
 


Marines! Lets kick some A S S!

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #64 on: July 14, 2009, 11:13:04 PM »
Or if they would simply be in the line of flyers:
Flyers spending 1 action for break away and don't need a roll, giving them their full MV as per Break Away Action.

Offline Lopis

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #65 on: July 14, 2009, 11:27:36 PM »
no worries, i know what you mean! But, here is an example of what can happen:

Mirrormen v. trenchers.

trenchers activate, and charge the mirrormen, attempting to tie them all up in CC, so that the mirrormen cant just shoot them all on secondary attacks.
a mirrorman can now activate, attempt to break away, and if successful, charge another model. presuming he kills that model on the 1st swing, he can now shoot twice with his pistol at 2 others! all on the 1st action...  and getting a +1/+1 bonus on the 1st attack that he otherwise would not have had, and a target that was once in cc (with him) to shoot at.

This is my issue with it: the room for abusive situations like that.  Granted, mirrormen are quite powerful to begin with... but it still serves as a valid example..

True,  that would work.
But MM would have to test for the breakaway. If they fail they lose an action.
They would have the secondary attack anyway, even if they choose to to hack at a blocking trencher first.
Give him Deadshot via Enhancement and it gets even nastier.

But again it was that anyway.
And I think they donīt get something new, they were always ugly.

I think for a normal break away the situation is clear. You do a break away action and therefore cannot charge, because it is a different action.

The whole discussion is just about the auto break away (correct me if I'm wrong).


I see no difference and I think that the discussion refers to CC-possibilities in general.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2009, 11:31:10 PM by Lopis »
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Offline Enker

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #66 on: July 15, 2009, 02:16:11 AM »

I think for a normal break away the situation is clear. You do a break away action and therefore cannot charge, because it is a different action.

The whole discussion is just about the auto break away (correct me if I'm wrong).


I see no difference and I think that the discussion refers to CC-possibilities in general.

There is a big difference. If you must make a break away action it is clear that you cannot charge.
Because the break away is a type of action for itself and it cannot be combined with a move,attack or charge action.
Or to say it the other way around. Charge is a combined move and attack action. Not a combined Break away and attack action.
The only exception is if the auto break away is treated as a move action. Only than you are able to auto break away (move away) and charge.
Marines! Lets kick some A S S!

Offline micmellon

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #67 on: July 15, 2009, 02:41:40 AM »
Please call the FAQ-Team!

(I just get the sound track of the Batman movies of the 80s in my mind .... dadadadada ..... FAQ-TEAM! (Please with a cape))

Back to the topic:

In get the feeling there are over all two fraction standing in there trenches and shooting always the same arguments against each others. It is time to finish this forth and back argumentation. If the FAQ-Team has no idea eather lets vote or it is time for FUWZ (final ultimate warzone)!
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Offline luckyone

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #68 on: July 15, 2009, 05:56:46 AM »
no worries, i know what you mean! But, here is an example of what can happen:

Mirrormen v. trenchers.

trenchers activate, and charge the mirrormen, attempting to tie them all up in CC, so that the mirrormen cant just shoot them all on secondary attacks.
a mirrorman can now activate, attempt to break away, and if successful, charge another model. presuming he kills that model on the 1st swing, he can now shoot twice with his pistol at 2 others! all on the 1st action...  and getting a +1/+1 bonus on the 1st attack that he otherwise would not have had, and a target that was once in cc (with him) to shoot at.

This is my issue with it: the room for abusive situations like that.  Granted, mirrormen are quite powerful to begin with... but it still serves as a valid example..

Spades versus heat swords and machine pistols and secondary attack. Feel sorry for the Trenchers. Unless there was another squad of trenchers right behind them (deadshot).
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Offline Enker

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #69 on: July 15, 2009, 05:57:30 AM »

In get the feeling there are over all two fraction standing in there trenches and shooting always the same arguments against each others. It is time to finish this forth and back argumentation.

No. I'm just trying to get more posts.
I need a promotion  ;D

No, they were really new arguments in the post or we tried to explain it for the "Topic newcomers".
But you are right with the "FAQ Team! Dadadadaddaaa FAQ Team!"
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 06:01:20 AM by Enker »
Marines! Lets kick some A S S!

Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #70 on: July 15, 2009, 01:56:07 PM »

In get the feeling there are over all two fraction standing in there trenches and shooting always the same arguments against each others. It is time to finish this forth and back argumentation.

No. I'm just trying to get more posts.
I need a promotion  ;D

Now that's funny!

;) Karma to you, sir; or, in other words, you got more posts and karma!  A "Two-fer!"
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #71 on: July 20, 2009, 02:10:35 PM »
DEFINITIVE ANSWER:

Breakaway movement may not be translated into a Charge.  The intent of the rule was to give the model that is attempting to break away a fighting chance to withdraw to a distance to conduct combat outside of CC.

Therefore, not only was my interpretation wrong, so would my ruling be, too.

This answer is after discussing this with Thom, and he set me straight as to the intent, no matter the ambiguity with the words as they can be found.  I apologize for my misunderstanding of the rule, and to any who've used my ruling in their games.

I will say this; you all conducted yourselves with gracious aplomb.  It is because of your steadfastedness on this topic that I felt that I had no recourse but to take this to a higher authority.  Karma to you all for not taking my word for it, and remaining gentlemen about it.  Nicely done, folks, nicely done.
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline Archer

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Re: Break away combinable with Charge
« Reply #72 on: July 20, 2009, 06:07:55 PM »
No  biggie Dave.

I had said it like three times early on...  its nice to know a FAQ  guy agrees with me once in a while. :)
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