Author Topic: Mortar Crewmen  (Read 10509 times)

Offline Enker

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Mortar Crewmen
« on: July 08, 2009, 02:25:58 AM »

In the FAQ there is mentioned that you only can fire with the first action if you have all three crewmen.

But where is the third crewman? Nearly all Mortars just have two Crewmen listened.
Is there a hidden Crewman allready at the Mortar?

For example the Bauhaus Crewmen have RC 8. But the Mortar itself has RC 7. Who is firing it?
The hidden Crewman? If yes, how can I kill him without an Armorvalue?

Or is the Spotter the third Crewman? But then he has to stay in base contact with the Mortar which doesn't make sense.
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Offline Lopis

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Re: Mortar Crewmen
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2009, 02:44:38 AM »
Man, you know my opinion...
Letīs see what the others say...
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Pax

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Re: Mortar Crewmen
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2009, 04:46:28 AM »
I think it goes like this:

The three crew members is, gunner, loader and spotter.

The gunner is able to shoot at anything within his own LOS with the Mortar, and doing so costs 1 action for him, the spotter and the loader.

The Spotter is able to move around a bit, not sure how far but at least with in command distance. And if the Spotter is able to see something the gunner might not, his LOS is possible to use to fire indirect fire upon a enemy as if the gunner had LOS.

The spotter is also often equipped with Tactical sense so he can order the mortar to fire at something else than the closest enemy squad.

In essence I think you could considered the mortar piece a vehicle, with a gunner, driver and spotter as crew. If one of them do something the others do as well. Spotter directs, gunner aims and fire, loader loads.

Offline Lopis

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Re: Mortar Crewmen
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2009, 06:12:41 AM »
Yes, thats how I see it, too.
But thereīs a FAQ answer that declares you would need 3 guys with their combined actions to fire the mortar.
That meaning if the spotter moves or is killer you need one action more to fire and lose a shot.

I canīt imagine that this should be correct. The spotter simply has nothing to do with the firing.....
there are actually clarifications for the spotter to join the crewmen.....
This would oppose the 3 guys to fire declaration....
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Offline Archer

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Re: Mortar Crewmen
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2009, 06:42:25 AM »
My take- the three man entry is a typo.

Gunner/Loader must expend a mutual action to fire.

Spotter must remain in Command Distance and may direct fire as per norm- as long as he can see it, the gun can drop rounds on target.

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Offline aoi cobalt

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Re: Mortar Crewmen
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2009, 07:25:21 AM »
Yes, thats how I see it, too.
But thereīs a FAQ answer that declares you would need 3 guys with their combined actions to fire the mortar.
That meaning if the spotter moves or is killer you need one action more to fire and lose a shot.

I canīt imagine that this should be correct. The spotter simply has nothing to do with the firing.....
there are actually clarifications for the spotter to join the crewmen.....
This would oppose the 3 guys to fire declaration....

One could also argue that if you don't have the spotter doing his job, the gunner has to look around to spot a target, decide what adjustments have to be made to the mortar to drop a round on the target, and then do his job (adjusting the mortar to hit the target) to fire the mortar. Loss of 1 action.
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Offline luckyone

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Re: Mortar Crewmen
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2009, 09:10:02 AM »
Yes, thats how I see it, too.
But thereīs a FAQ answer that declares you would need 3 guys with their combined actions to fire the mortar.
That meaning if the spotter moves or is killer you need one action more to fire and lose a shot.

I canīt imagine that this should be correct. The spotter simply has nothing to do with the firing.....
there are actually clarifications for the spotter to join the crewmen.....
This would oppose the 3 guys to fire declaration....

One could also argue that if you don't have the spotter doing his job, the gunner has to look around to spot a target, decide what adjustments have to be made to the mortar to drop a round on the target, and then do his job (adjusting the mortar to hit the target) to fire the mortar. Loss of 1 action.



I agree with above. Since it is a crew of three firing the motar, I would believe they would be cross trained to do each others job. That is how it is done IMHO. The loss of the action(s) due to crew loss reflects the extra time needed to do the same job short handed. The crew would move back and forth from position to position to accomplish the fire mission. On person can fire the mortar, spot the round etc. It would be less effeicent than with three crew members.

Page 138: Firing Mortars
Q: How do the actions of mortar teams work? If the spotter moves three times, can the crew then fire
three times using the LOS of the spotter?
A: The team must use their actions like a vehicle crew. All must use their first action before any of them
may use a second. It takes all three of crewman to fire the weapon with their first action.
If a crewman is missing, the remaining two crewmen may do nothing with their first action except
move the mortar, or prepare the weapon for firing short handed.
If there are two crewmen missing, the remaining crewman may do nothing with his first and second
action except prepare the gun for firing. He may not move the mortar alone.
Models that elect to spend actions doing something else are unable to assist in the firing process,
and thus the crew must continue short handed as above. LOS is determined from the gun and not the
spotter in any case. Only a forward observer may direct speculative fire attacks.
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Offline Enker

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Re: Mortar Crewmen
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2009, 09:36:16 AM »
So the Spotter is the third crewmen?
But he can move free and must not spend its actions to fire the mortar?
But if the Spotter is killed, you lose one shot with the mortar, right?
A little bit wired.

And if one of the other crewmen is killed, does the spotter have to move to the mortar to take the job,
or can he continue to act as spotter?
« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 09:39:53 AM by Enker »
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Offline luckyone

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Re: Mortar Crewmen
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2009, 10:22:07 AM »
Not the oficial answer but I think:


So the Spotter is the third crewmen? - Yes

But he can move free and must not spend its actions to fire the mortar? - Not exactly. He "loses" one action if one of the other two crewmen is killed. "loses" another if the second one is killed. This simulates a two man or one man firing team.

But if the Spotter is killed, you lose one shot with the mortar, right? - Correct since he is a crew member

A little bit wired. - Some clarification from a FAQ team member is needed - you are correct.

And if one of the other crewmen is killed, does the spotter have to move to the mortar to take the job,
or can he continue to act as spotter? - I would say he stays where he is. If he uses an action other than above the mortar cannnot be fired.

This is a very good discussion and needs to be addressed.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 10:26:58 AM by luckyone »
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Offline aoi cobalt

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Re: Mortar Crewmen
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2009, 10:51:18 AM »
And if one of the other crewmen is killed, does the spotter have to move to the mortar to take the job,
or can he continue to act as spotter?

I'd say the spotter can still spot, as the other crewman takes over both jobs (and loses an action to fire).
With both other crewmen gone though, I'd say the spotter has to move to the mortar, or no one will be firing the mortar.
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Offline Lopis

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Re: Mortar Crewmen
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2009, 11:11:26 AM »
Yes, thats how I see it, too.
But thereīs a FAQ answer that declares you would need 3 guys with their combined actions to fire the mortar.
That meaning if the spotter moves or is killer you need one action more to fire and lose a shot.

I canīt imagine that this should be correct. The spotter simply has nothing to do with the firing.....
there are actually clarifications for the spotter to join the crewmen.....
This would oppose the 3 guys to fire declaration....

One could also argue that if you don't have the spotter doing his job, the gunner has to look around to spot a target, decide what adjustments have to be made to the mortar to drop a round on the target, and then do his job (adjusting the mortar to hit the target) to fire the mortar. Loss of 1 action.



I agree with above. Since it is a crew of three firing the motar, I would believe they would be cross trained to do each others job. That is how it is done IMHO. The loss of the action(s) due to crew loss reflects the extra time needed to do the same job short handed. The crew would move back and forth from position to position to accomplish the fire mission. On person can fire the mortar, spot the round etc. It would be less effeicent than with three crew members.

Page 138: Firing Mortars
Q: How do the actions of mortar teams work? If the spotter moves three times, can the crew then fire
three times using the LOS of the spotter?
A: The team must use their actions like a vehicle crew. All must use their first action before any of them
may use a second. It takes all three of crewman to fire the weapon with their first action.
If a crewman is missing, the remaining two crewmen may do nothing with their first action except
move the mortar, or prepare the weapon for firing short handed.
If there are two crewmen missing, the remaining crewman may do nothing with his first and second
action except prepare the gun for firing. He may not move the mortar alone.
Models that elect to spend actions doing something else are unable to assist in the firing process,
and thus the crew must continue short handed as above. LOS is determined from the gun and not the
spotter in any case. Only a forward observer may direct speculative fire attacks.

thats a possible clarification, but it is (in my opinion a bit illogical and at least) incoherent.

For Cap/Imp/Bauhaus Mortars there are extra settings for the Spotter to take over the position of a crewman.
But if you lose a firing action for not having a spotter anyway, so why this clarification?
And if you need spot-load-shoot as a combination to shoot, what effect does this extra clarification have.

"Spotters must remain in command radius of the
mortar, They can assume a crew posltlon by
moving into base contact wifh the rear arc ol
the mortar, but whrle dolng so they may not use
their Tactical Sense spectal ability"

And to add to that:

-A Ducal mounted HMG Team can shoot if it loses his loader, it can only not be moved anymore....
One could think through isufficient loading it canīt fire as normal....

- The Mish Rocket Mortar has also three crewmembers but lacks any clarifications. It seems the leader canīt move into crewposition
- The Arashii Ryuu field artillery has actually 4 crewmembers. Do they need all 4 or only three like the others and the artillery can forego a missing member ?


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Offline luckyone

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Re: Mortar Crewmen
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2009, 11:12:19 AM »
And if one of the other crewmen is killed, does the spotter have to move to the mortar to take the job,
or can he continue to act as spotter?

I'd say the spotter can still spot, as the other crewman takes over both jobs (and loses an action to fire).
With both other crewmen gone though, I'd say the spotter has to move to the mortar, or no one will be firing the mortar.

Aoi,

Your logic works on this. Another spotter would have to be used if one crewman is left correct? If the spooter was the last one left he would have to move to the mortar to fire it?
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Offline luckyone

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Re: Mortar Crewmen
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2009, 11:15:09 AM »
This sounds like a job for a FAQ team member to clear up. Many valid arguments above by all parties.
Always look out for number one, but don't step in number two.
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The entire Capitol Army.
Don't ever say anything but a 20 before rolling the dice.

Offline Archer

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Re: Mortar Crewmen
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2009, 04:55:56 PM »
as I recall....

Comms can act as an FO- and they act as spotters too.
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"Why do your people always ask if someone is ready, just before you do something massively unwise?"
"Tradition."

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Offline luckyone

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Re: Mortar Crewmen
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2009, 05:41:57 PM »
as I recall....

Comms can act as an FO- and they act as spotters too.

Can they act as crew (firing the mortar?) Can the crew (non-spotter) act as a F.O.?

Thanks for your help.
Always look out for number one, but don't step in number two.
What do you mean Flash Gordon approaching? OPEN FIRE!
The entire Capitol Army.
Don't ever say anything but a 20 before rolling the dice.