Author Topic: Mp, blocking LOS and such  (Read 11533 times)

Offline Enker

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Re: Mp, blocking LOS and such
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2009, 11:23:22 PM »
Per Rulebook definition MP does not block line of side.
Because no where is mentioned, that the size of the model changes by going into MP.
Ok, maybe they just forgott it.

So you have the option to play with common sense and say that going into MP behind a small wall does block LOS or
You play strict to the rulebook (or maybe because you hate "pop out and shot" tactics) and play that MP does not change the status of LOS.

It is your choice. I prefer that going into MP does not block LOS because I hate this "duck dancing" and I don't think it is against the rules.

Marines! Lets kick some A S S!

Offline Lopis

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Re: Mp, blocking LOS and such
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2009, 11:36:09 PM »
Funn you say that....
That duck-dancing was your invention.... ;)
Remember that Banshee hero of yours...
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Re: Mp, blocking LOS and such
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2009, 12:20:29 AM »
Per Rulebook definition MP does not block line of side.
Because no where is mentioned, that the size of the model changes by going into MP.
Ok, maybe they just forgott it.

So you have the option to play with common sense and say that going into MP behind a small wall does block LOS or
You play strict to the rulebook (or maybe because you hate "pop out and shot" tactics) and play that MP does not change the status of LOS.

It is your choice. I prefer that going into MP does not block LOS because I hate this "duck dancing" and I don't think it is against the rules.



No there is no real rule written that say that MP decreases a units size. But there is written on page 41 that being in MP means the unit is close to the ground. As well you can only crawl while in MP and on page 46 it describes crawling as a option to "move along a short wall to avoid enemy fire". Along with the rule that a friendly model standing next to a model in MP will be able to shot trough it since it's not standing in the way when in MP.

But yes Common sense wins the day of this. What I sought was some advice and maybe conclusion on it and that is what I got. I'm writing a translation of the rules for UWZ in Swedish to keep track on what rules apply in what situation without the fluff and easier discussions in our gaming group. Gotta love to open a can of worms sometimes. :D

Offline Coil

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Re: Mp, blocking LOS and such
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2009, 01:55:05 AM »
The confusion, here, in my opinion, is one of whether the definition matches the intent.

MP, in and of itself, does not block LOS.  Cover, in and of itself, does not block LOS.

If a SZ 2 model is behind Cover that would block LOS for a SZ 1 model, and choose to assume a minimized presence (MP), then the model may be considered to be behind Cover that blocks LOS.  Note, however, that if LOS is blocked to this model, it is blocked from this model as well; in other words, if no model can shoot it, then it may not shoot at any other model.  Common sense is, definitely, the key, here.

Please, let me know if this clarifies the issue.
Ehm, where in the rules do you find this? If my memory serves me right there is no definition of cover in relation to model size or that MP would reduce you to a smaller size.

Offline Enker

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Re: Mp, blocking LOS and such
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2009, 02:29:07 AM »
Funn you say that....
That duck-dancing was your invention.... ;)
Remember that Banshee hero of yours...

Whoa, that was back at the beginning of first edition. With this mega super monster heros.
And a duck dancing Banshee Hero with a Nimrod was the only answer to the Pilgrim Executioner
or Pretorion Stalker Squads with Nazgaroth.

No there is no real rule written that say that MP decreases a units size. But there is written on page 41 that being in MP means the unit is close to the ground. As well you can only crawl while in MP and on page 46 it describes crawling as a option to "move along a short wall to avoid enemy fire". Along with the rule that a friendly model standing next to a model in MP will be able to shot trough it since it's not standing in the way when in MP.

As you say it. There is no rule. If I take all the fluff and generell explenations in the rulebook as rules, I could interpretate a loooooooot of rules.
For a rule there must be a explicit line where it says: "By going into MP the size of the model is halved"
or "by going into MP obstacles with a size halve of the model size are blocking LOS" or somethig like that.
You cannot make rules from fluff or generell decriptions. Ok, you can, but than it is a house rule.
There are so much rules which you could ad according to "common sense".



« Last Edit: July 02, 2009, 02:33:03 AM by Enker »
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Pax

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Re: Mp, blocking LOS and such
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2009, 02:35:21 AM »
At page 46 i noticed:

Crawling:
Soldiers in MP have the option to move, but the movement is slow and awkward. Sometimes a soldier may need to move along a short wall to avoid enemy fire[..]


Wouldn't this example lead to the conclusion that the manual was written with the "MP breaks LOS" rule in mind?

Yes, yes, yes, yes.  This is what I have been saying but it has either fallen on deaf ears or those who wish to  debate this.  I was told by Da Man himself at Origins 2004, before running the national tourney, that if a model is in MP behind cover that is at least half of its size in inches (1 inch for a size two, 1 and 1/2 inch for a size 3, 2 inches for a size 4 etc) then the model is out of LOS.

This one of the mentioned answers linked in the beginning of this topic that I found while searching around and among the reasons why I asked it all in the beginning. :)

Offline Enker

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Re: Mp, blocking LOS and such
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2009, 05:06:00 AM »
At page 46 i noticed:

Crawling:
Sometimes a soldier may need to move along a short wall to avoid enemy fire[..]


This one of the mentioned answers linked in the beginning of this topic that I found while searching around and among the reasons why I asked it all in the beginning. :)

You use that to create a rule?

Oh fine. I make another rule:
Rulebook Page 152 "Since Capitol is the largest of the Corporations size and strength of its forces reflect this."
So I would say Capitol gets 150% of Points for their fighting Force in a Warzone battle.
Common Sense would say, yes if they are the largest andd strongest Corporation, why not?
You have the rulebook entry on page 152 and no where in the rulebook does it say, that it isn't so.

You know what I mean?  ;)
You must have to seperate from explicit rules and from generel descriptions, at least if you are talking about "official" rules.
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Offline Lopis

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Re: Mp, blocking LOS and such
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2009, 06:07:53 AM »
Hey Boys...calm down.
let the heat flow away and breathe, breathe breathe...



There actually is a ruling mentioning cover in relation to the figs, but I donīt want to open that box of pandora now.
Solus honor cladem avertat !

Pax

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Re: Mp, blocking LOS and such
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2009, 06:25:41 AM »
lol. I'm calm. What I was referring to was not the first section but the second.
Quote
Yes, yes, yes, yes.  This is what I have been saying but it has either fallen on deaf ears or those who wish to  debate this.  I was told by Da Man himself at Origins 2004, before running the national tourney, that if a model is in MP behind cover that is at least half of its size in inches (1 inch for a size two, 1 and 1/2 inch for a size 3, 2 inches for a size 4 etc) then the model is out of LOS.

This is why I asked since Stalker had been told that was the rule during a tournament. Either way dmcgee1 already given me a answer I can work with. Not here trying to make up rules, just understand what others already said.

Offline micmellon

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Re: Mp, blocking LOS and such
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2009, 06:51:41 AM »
Hey Enker

For the Trench War Szenario just make special ruling then you can make sure nobody drives you nuts ;) ;D
It's just a flesh wound - Black Night

Offline luckyone

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Re: Mp, blocking LOS and such
« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2009, 07:00:13 AM »
Communication is key here.

Yes you are correct. MP and cover do not block LOS.

A quick, hey I am going to MP behind cover and intend to get out of sight from so and so and it will take me at least an action to pop up to shoot, and agreement from the other player does.

The best (and fastest) games I have ever played were when the rules we rarely if ever discussed.

Throughout the entire game pretty much all that was said was:

Looks close enough to me.
If you shoot at MR, I will return fire at MR.
I think this is what should happen, it makes sense, agree?
I think it should be -2 for cover here agree?
I think Walkers do not get a penalty, right?
Shoot, I forgot envoromental role, here is the role now.
I think I will need to take a leadership roll now since he is down to half of his wounds.

I can go on and on.

BTW, thanks Dave, Josh, Dodger, Archer and Phil for the great games we have played over the years.


« Last Edit: July 02, 2009, 09:12:33 AM by luckyone »
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Offline Enker

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Re: Mp, blocking LOS and such
« Reply #26 on: July 02, 2009, 09:44:29 AM »
I'm calm, too.
I just wanted to explain in which way you have to read the rules.
The Capitol example is a little bit hyped, but not wrong by its meaning.
Of course conversation is the best thing to make an agreement, but sometimes it dont work
and you cant debate everthing in game. And the peacemaker role is not realy helping anyone.

If ingame conversation and peacemaker would be the best thing we wouldnt need this forum here.
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Offline micmellon

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Re: Mp, blocking LOS and such
« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2009, 10:44:44 AM »
To clarify it. I think the term of going in MP reduce the size is not correct. The term would be it reduced maybe the height of a model.
Size is the overall body of the model and not only the height. If the size would change we would have to think about the changes of size parameters like size difference during RC.

If you lay down. Your size is still the same. As an example the Fenris bike has the same height like the Necromower but the bike is much longer. So the Fenris bike has size 4 the Necromower has size 3.
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Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Mp, blocking LOS and such
« Reply #28 on: July 02, 2009, 06:23:54 PM »
Quote from: Coil link=topic=5863.msg45734#msg45734 date=
Quote from: dmcgee1 link=topic=5863.msg45693#msg45693 date=
The confusion, here, in my opinion, is one of whether the definition matches the intent.

MP, in and of itself, does not block LOS.  Cover, in and of itself, does not block LOS.

If a SZ 2 model is behind Cover that would block LOS for a SZ 1 model, and choose to assume a minimized presence (MP), then the model may be considered to be behind Cover that blocks LOS.  Note, however, that if LOS is blocked to this model, it is blocked from this model as well; in other words, if no model can shoot it, then it may not shoot at any other model.  Common sense is, definitely, the key, here.

Please, let me know if this clarifies the issue.
Ehm, where in the rules do you find this? If my memory serves me right there is no definition of cover in relation to model size or that MP would reduce you to a smaller size.

I am not quoting any rule, Coil.  I am presenting common sense as derived from the rules.  If one is MP, or "close to the ground," as one must be to crawl, then one should, for height purposes, be considered to be of lower stature.  That said, common sense says that you can, indeed, hide behind cover that would block LOS.  Again, this demands communication of intent between the players.
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Offline micmellon

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Re: Mp, blocking LOS and such
« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2011, 11:39:12 AM »
The table on page 46 indicates a possible change of height. A model must start to crawl to get under a space of the half size.
Of course the models size stays the same only the height will change.

This explanes why it would be possible to shoot over a model in MP.
It's just a flesh wound - Black Night