Author Topic: Camoueflage and cover question  (Read 4741 times)

Pax

  • Guest
Camoueflage and cover question
« on: May 24, 2009, 03:49:26 AM »
So I have been starting to use my DS in battle and their camouflage ability has come into question.

When a unit is in cover he either get +1, +2 or +3 depending on how they stand in relation to the cover and what material it is, yes?

If a unit is shooting at another unit that is covered from the waist up in a hard material is it in hard cover. -3 RC

If a unit is shooting at another unit that is covered from the waist up in a soft material is it in soft cover. -2 RC

if a unit is shooting at another unit that is within 4 inches of a covering material is it obscured. -1 RC

This is what I understand from the rules.

Now the questions:

When is a unit standing exactly in -1 RC?

This is one of the things I have run into with camouflage. Is the 4inches from cover traced from the figure along the Line of Sight and 4 inches forward? Or is it traced from a 4 inch radius?

The correct way makes a ton of a difference for units with Camouflage.

If the 4 inches from cover is along the line of sight counting towards the hit unit, then the only thing that offers cover in this manner is terrain in between the units. This I can understand logically if you do not have camouflage. If there is nothing in between you and the enemy, you get no cover at all, if there is, you do.

But when you do have camouflage you melt into the terrain around you, so should a unit with camouflage be able to use a improved cover rule, and use any terrain within a 4inch radius to be harder to hit? Because when it's Camouflage your using it's not the terrain anymore that actually gives the bonus but your camouflage skill. (since it's firstly overriding the -1 RC from obscuring and upgrades (+1) you to soft cover, if you got camouflage 2)

This gives Camouflage a edge if it's a radius as enemies that might fall upon you from behind or the side still receive the penalty to hit, while units without suddenly lost their cover.

So how do you count cover and camouflage bonuses?

I'm including a image to hopefully give a overview of what I'm asking about.


A is attacking with LoS across a cover that Ca is not in Base contact with but within 4 inches.

B is attacking with LoS without any cover that blocks, but Cb is within 4Inch from the cover.

C(a) should get full camouflage bonus, let's say 3.

But C(b), do he get 3 from that attack as well?

or if I would add a attacker D from behind to simply things. Would it give any camouflage as long as nothing changes?

Offline Dr. Nick

  • Member Emeritus
  • *****
  • Posts: 1054
  • Karma: +48/-16
Re: Camoueflage and cover question
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2009, 04:29:16 AM »
if you read P55 9.5.3. Examples

you see that the intention is not the 4ī radius gives "cover",
but anything obscuring _between_ has at least a little effect
(but nothing like 50 m away from you when the enemy is 100 away).
(Example: ...through two windows, across a pile of rubble...)

=> A gets -1 because the obscuring square, B gets no problems.

more important thing is the _arguable_ strage ruling of camo itself (P70).
e.g. BB with Camo:2 will get -2 (2>1) from camo, but in all other situations nothing...

(what about smoke & MP?? does either stack with camo??)

to "replace" the cover bonus with camo makes no sense in my opinion.

better would be
a) simply a to hit penalty for the enemy (these special ops guys are so sneaky, they sneak all the time).
b) a bonus to cover situations (smoke*, real cover, MP#).     *# assume both are terrain effects?

i vote for b)


cuīs
« Last Edit: May 24, 2009, 04:31:22 AM by Dr. Nick »
"Donīt anticipate outcome. Await the unfolding of events. Remain in the moment."

Pax

  • Guest
Re: Camoueflage and cover question
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2009, 04:34:08 AM »
smoke stack with camo/cover that I know

Offline Dr. Nick

  • Member Emeritus
  • *****
  • Posts: 1054
  • Karma: +48/-16
Re: Camoueflage and cover question
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2009, 04:41:31 AM »
smoke stack with camo/cover that I know

with cover yes, it think also.

but with camo?

is smoke a terrain effect? it should be as other soft view-proof things (e.g. hedges) are terrain also.

-> a) camo does not stack to smoke. (his hiding skills are useless if he is so hard to see anway ::))
    b) smoke is no cover -> camo is not even triggered


with MP i am not sure. the problem is, that MP does always work, even if you stand 1ī behind the MP model  ??? ::).

but, since MP reduces your "size" and therefore effectively makes cover bigger (small battlefield roughness) i assme it is a terrain effect

-> a) camo does not stack, camo3 still usefull
    b) MP is a form of cover (somewhere discussed, i think) and therefore camo works
« Last Edit: May 24, 2009, 04:53:44 AM by Dr. Nick »
"Donīt anticipate outcome. Await the unfolding of events. Remain in the moment."

Offline Archer

  • Board Member
  • Member Emeritus
  • *****
  • Posts: 1676
  • Karma: +64/-2
  • Warzone General extrodinare based in Reading, PA
Re: Camoueflage and cover question
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2009, 05:23:04 AM »
as I understand it- and I do get this particular subject wrong on occasion....


Smoke is Concealment and not a terrain effect.  If a unit happens to be in cover and has smoke dumped on top of them, it stacks.

Camouflage and Smoke: I think it does.

MP and smoke: I don't think so.

guerrilla and smoke:  yes as the -1  is all the time unless COVER is greater.

If I am wrong, I believe Prime or McGee will jump in and correct me.
John "Archer" Tinney

"Ready?"
"Why do your people always ask if someone is ready, just before you do something massively unwise?"
"Tradition."

- Jeffrey Sinclair and Delenn, Babylon 5: "War Without End, Part One" y

Pax

  • Guest
Re: Camoueflage and cover question
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2009, 06:25:46 AM »
That is how I understood smoke with it and camouflage.

Still I'm at loss with the first question I asked, when and how camouflage works and how. :/

Offline Archer

  • Board Member
  • Member Emeritus
  • *****
  • Posts: 1676
  • Karma: +64/-2
  • Warzone General extrodinare based in Reading, PA
Re: Camoueflage and cover question
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2009, 06:13:08 PM »
That is how I understood smoke with it and camouflage.

Still I'm at loss with the first question I asked, when and how camouflage works and how. :/

Camo and Cover.

Camo works when you are near something that would function as cover or concealment, getting either the bonus for  the Ability or the Cover- which ever is Greater.

so if you are in light, obscuring shrubbery/tall grasses, you would get your Camo bonus as it is higher than the obscuring benefit of the grass.


***

I always thought it should be a bonus to the benefit of being in cover on top of the cover bonus for anything past Short... but it's very abuse-able in that fashion.  *shrug*
John "Archer" Tinney

"Ready?"
"Why do your people always ask if someone is ready, just before you do something massively unwise?"
"Tradition."

- Jeffrey Sinclair and Delenn, Babylon 5: "War Without End, Part One" y

Pax

  • Guest
Re: Camoueflage and cover question
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2009, 09:53:10 PM »
So are you able to get camouflage cover when you stand in front of a object that was able to give camouflage instead of behind one?

Is it possible to cancel out the camouflage rule if someone stands in cover of a object and you move so that your LoS is not affected by any obstacles or is the camouflaged unit always receiving it's bonus as long as it's close enough to obscuring terrain even if it's not in the enemies line of sight but within 4" of the character? As per the image at the top