Author Topic: Drivers and Crew Actions  (Read 4325 times)

Pax

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Drivers and Crew Actions
« on: April 05, 2009, 03:04:19 AM »
Here's another question I can't wrap my head around.

When you have several crew members on a vehicle certain rules comes into play, among them these:

A single crew vehicle can both move and fire at the same time when using 1 action (I understand this as you can move up to 1 full MV action per the vehicles movement and then fire the weapon from that position), the Driver do not get any penalties for doing this.

Meanwhile if the Driver ignores to move and just shot, he get a +3 because of the stability of the vehicle.

When playing with a Vehicle such as the Orca Battlesuit, the rules for this one seem to be that of the single crew. When standing still the driver get +3 in shooting, when moving he can also shot with the same action. But the Gunner is working differently, he got a special rule that state that because to the unstable nature of the Orca when moving, he can only fire his weapon if he uses all 3 of his actions.

#Q1: If the Orca ain't moving, is it still in force that the Gunner is only able to shot once? As I understand it, it is because of the rocking movement when the Orca walk around that makes it much harder for the Gunner to fire and thus have to use all 3 actions just to fire once. So if the Orca stands still, should the gunner be able to fire three times?

#Q2: When the Orca Stands still, is the Gunner getting the +3 Bonus for aiming as well, since he's using the Orca as firing platform?

#Q3: If the Gunner uses his 3 actions to fire once while moving, will he get -3 in RC as well on that one fire action?

Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Drivers and Crew Actions
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2009, 07:53:39 PM »
Here's another question I can't wrap my head around.

When you have several crew members on a vehicle certain rules comes into play, among them these:

A single crew vehicle can both move and fire at the same time when using 1 action (I understand this as you can move up to 1 full MV action per the vehicles movement and then fire the weapon from that position), the Driver do not get any penalties for doing this.

Meanwhile if the Driver ignores to move and just shot, he get a +3 because of the stability of the vehicle.

When playing with a Vehicle such as the Orca Battlesuit, the rules for this one seem to be that of the single crew. When standing still the driver get +3 in shooting, when moving he can also shot with the same action. But the Gunner is working differently, he got a special rule that state that because to the unstable nature of the Orca when moving, he can only fire his weapon if he uses all 3 of his actions.

#Q1: If the Orca ain't moving, is it still in force that the Gunner is only able to shot once? As I understand it, it is because of the rocking movement when the Orca walk around that makes it much harder for the Gunner to fire and thus have to use all 3 actions just to fire once. So if the Orca stands still, should the gunner be able to fire three times?

Yes.  The gunner should fire during the Action(s) that the Orca has chosen not to move.  This will allow the gunner to receive the +3 RC bonus, effectively cancelling the -3 RC penalty to +/-0.

#Q2: When the Orca Stands still, is the Gunner getting the +3 Bonus for aiming as well, since he's using the Orca as firing platform?

As stated above, yes.

#Q3: If the Gunner uses his 3 actions to fire once while moving, will he get -3 in RC as well on that one fire action?

Yes.  However, this will be in combination with the +3 RC bonus for not moving.


The best use of an Orca gunner is to have him disembark the Orca, Form Fireteam, and go hunting on his own, in this player's humble opinion.
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Pax

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Re: Drivers and Crew Actions
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2009, 11:38:03 PM »
Hmm, alright.

Just for me to be certain I understand this correctly:

Orca
If the Orca is not moving for 3 actions but firing or waiting, the gunner would also be able to fire 3 times as well (The Driver firing for 1 action first, then the Gunner, then repeat until out of actions)
When doing so both Orca and Gunner get +/-3 or in essential 0 in penalty and uses their stated RC value.
The Orca Driver and Gunner will both get -3 RC if they fire while moving (with the gunner only being able to fire once after the first action spent moving by the Orca.)

I can see the potential in forming fire teams with the gunners and have a extra HMG squad wreaking havoc elsewhere indeed, but then I'm probably gonna be missing them on top of my Orcas where I think they should be out of duty to their partner in the vehicle :P

Offline Lopis

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Re: Drivers and Crew Actions
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2009, 08:29:08 AM »

Orca
If the Orca is not moving for 3 actions but firing or waiting, the gunner would also be able to fire 3 times as well (The Driver firing for 1 action first, then the Gunner, then repeat until out of actions)
When doing so both Orca and Gunner get +/-3 or in essential 0 in penalty and uses their stated RC value.
The Orca Driver and Gunner will both get -3 RC if they fire while moving (with the gunner only being able to fire once after the first action spent moving by the Orca.)

--> not fully true: The gunner alsways gets only one shot per round of activation.
What he could do to use a set of his "3" Actions is to shoot after the first "stand-still-and-shoot-action" of the crewed-Orca.
Then after the movement of the Orca he could use his remaining two actions to dismantle his gun and dismenbark. This would then prohibit the Orca to move in the third Orca action.
Otherwise in any case the gunner only gets his one shot per round, what leads to an actual treatment of: ROF 1/turn as long as "riding".
But you can shoot in any crew-action you like.

I can see the potential in forming fire teams with the gunners and have a extra HMG squad wreaking havoc elsewhere indeed, but then I'm probably gonna be missing them on top of my Orcas where I think they should be out of duty to their partner in the vehicle

--> Noone will force you to disembark, but it would give you an extra activation per turn and mor agility if you do so.
Just remember to move the gunner out of CD, otherwise you would hyve to keep in CD per squad coherency. FormFireteam only jumps in once you are out of CD.
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Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Drivers and Crew Actions
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2009, 03:26:34 PM »
Hmm, alright.

Just for me to be certain I understand this correctly:

Orca
If the Orca is not moving for 3 actions but firing or waiting, the gunner would also be able to fire 3 times as well (The Driver firing for 1 action first, then the Gunner, then repeat until out of actions)
When doing so both Orca and Gunner get +/-3 or in essential 0 in penalty and uses their stated RC value.
The Orca Driver and Gunner will both get -3 RC if they fire while moving (with the gunner only being able to fire once after the first action spent moving by the Orca.)

I can see the potential in forming fire teams with the gunners and have a extra HMG squad wreaking havoc elsewhere indeed, but then I'm probably gonna be missing them on top of my Orcas where I think they should be out of duty to their partner in the vehicle :P

I will expound upon this, as I am not sure whether I am being confused by your interpretation, or you by mine.

On any given Action, if the Orca does not move (neither before nor after firing), then the driver and the gunner receive the +3 RC bonus.  The driver may move and fire in one action, no matter which Action of the Activation that the Gunner chooses to fire.

Therefore, an example of an Orca's Activation may look like this:

 - Orca activates
 - - First Action:  Orca moves four inches, then fires at normal RC.
 - - Second Action:  The Orca does not move, and fires again.  This time, the driver receives a +3 RC bonus.  The Gunner decides to fire, at his normal RC, plus -3 RC due to firing from the back of the Orca, and +3 RC due to the Orca not moving during this Action.
 - - Third Action:  The Orca fires at normal RC (no bonus), then moves behind cover.

Does this help?
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Pax

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Re: Drivers and Crew Actions
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2009, 10:31:16 PM »
Hmm, I was hoping that the Orca would be possible to use as a mobile fortification of sort.

Like, move orca for one turn into position, apply rules as stated.

Then have the Orca not use it's actions to move, only to fire it's weapon. Thus eliminating the Action penalty for the Driver since the Orca was standing still, not moving. But it seems I miss-read the rules and thought the penalty was given to the gunner of the Orca (1 use of weapon for 3 actions) because of the Orca being so unstable by walking. This lead me to speculate if it was possible for the Gunner to fire  for the cost of only 1 action if the Orca didn't move (just fired it weapons) for the whole round.

Offline Enker

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Re: Drivers and Crew Actions
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2009, 11:07:25 PM »
The HMG Rider gets the +3 while the Orca is standing, too?

Yehaaa. Thought he didn't get ist.
So the HMG Riders aren't so bad as I thought.
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Offline Lopis

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Re: Drivers and Crew Actions
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2009, 07:41:39 AM »
@ Enker: I think he doesnīt.

@ Dmcgee1: I would disagree on your explanation of the bonusses:

The bonus to RC goes only for single-crewed vehicles.
Actually the vehicle itself is crewed. The rider wouldnīt get the bonus, because only the driver firing the vehicle mounted gun receives the
bonus for not doing two things parallel: firing and driving.

Since not one of the both is true for the rider - he isnīt the driver and fires a distinct weapon -  the rider canīt receive the bonusses reserved for the drivers:
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Offline Enker

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Re: Drivers and Crew Actions
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2009, 11:05:22 PM »

The bonus to RC goes only for single-crewed vehicles.


Nope. The +3 is for Multi crewed vehicles, too.
In the rulebook this rule is only mentioned for single crewed vehicles,
but it was FAQed or ruled by the admininstrators here, that the +3 RC is also for multi crewed vehicles.

Das haben wir doch auch die letzten Spiele immer so gemacht beim Strike Skimmer.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2009, 11:11:19 PM by Enker »
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Pax

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Re: Drivers and Crew Actions
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2009, 05:49:19 AM »
Thanks for all the answers. A bit curious about this part though:

Quote from: Lopis
What he could do to use a set of his "3" Actions is to shoot after the first "stand-still-and-shoot-action" of the crewed-Orca.
Then after the movement of the Orca he could use his remaining two actions to dismantle his gun and dismenbark. This would then prohibit the Orca to move in the third Orca action.
Otherwise in any case the gunner only gets his one shot per round, what leads to an actual treatment of: ROF 1/turn as long as "riding".
But you can shoot in any crew-action you like.

I was under the impression that if the Gunner shots on his first action, he can't do anything else, including dismantle the gun and disembark:

Quote
If he elects not to fire: he may detach his weapon and disembark

This at least in my ears sounds like if he shoots, he will not be able to do anything else. The 1 burst with the HMG costs him 3 actions, his total. He can't both fire his weapon and disembark afterwards.

Offline Lopis

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Re: Drivers and Crew Actions
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2009, 07:52:54 AM »
@ Enker

[/quote]
Nope. The +3 is for Multi crewed vehicles, too.
In the rulebook this rule is only mentioned for single crewed vehicles,
but it was FAQed or ruled by the admininstrators here, that the +3 RC is also for multi crewed vehicles.

Das haben wir doch auch die letzten Spiele immer so gemacht beim Strike Skimmer.
[/quote]

Huhaa
If that was ruled that way I missed it, sorry. In this case I take everything back and stick to the opposite.

<Und ich kann mich zwar nicht dran erinnern, aber wenns so war glaube ich dir das mal ;-)>

@Pax:

Youīre right. Read it over again and came to the same conclusion as you did.
I always read the " and take no other actions while riding the Orca - part" slightly different; as to he canīt aim, spot or anything.

But yes as I read it again now, I would agree to you, that he may only dismantle and disembark, if he doesnīt shoot at all from the back of the Orca.
--> and after that he has a third action left: shoot in that one ;-)
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Offline luckyone

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Re: Drivers and Crew Actions
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2009, 08:45:31 AM »
@ Enker

Nope. The +3 is for Multi crewed vehicles, too.
In the rulebook this rule is only mentioned for single crewed vehicles,
but it was FAQed or ruled by the admininstrators here, that the +3 RC is also for multi crewed vehicles.

Das haben wir doch auch die letzten Spiele immer so gemacht beim Strike Skimmer.
[/quote]

Huhaa
If that was ruled that way I missed it, sorry. In this case I take everything back and stick to the opposite.

<Und ich kann mich zwar nicht dran erinnern, aber wenns so war glaube ich dir das mal ;-)>

@Pax:

Youīre right. Read it over again and came to the same conclusion as you did.
I always read the " and take no other actions while riding the Orca - part" slightly different; as to he canīt aim, spot or anything.

But yes as I read it again now, I would agree to you, that he may only dismantle and disembark, if he doesnīt shoot at all from the back of the Orca.
--> and after that he has a third action left: shoot in that one ;-)
[/quote]


I believe he would not be able to shoot on his last action IMHO.

1 action to form fire team

2 actions to disembark the Orka (ie fall off back of it)

No more actions are left.
That is how Dave and I played it I believe.
Again I am not a member of the FAQ team and humbly await their ruling on this, and home game = home rules also.

Modified for spelling error.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2009, 08:52:26 AM by luckyone »
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Pax

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Re: Drivers and Crew Actions
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2009, 09:23:13 AM »
Quote
I believe he would not be able to shoot on his last action IMHO.

1 action to form fire team

2 actions to disembark the Orka (ie fall off back of it)

No more actions are left.
That is how Dave and I played it I believe.
Again I am not a member of the FAQ team and humbly await their ruling on this, and home game = home rules also.

Modified for spelling error.

Are you actually required to spend a action to form a fire team?

Also since he just disembarks from the Orca, thus ending up in base with the Orca itself should he still be within the command distance of the squad. Spending 2 actions to disembark and then be able to do whatever you wish with the third, aka, move, wait, fire, etc sounds logical. Only once the gunner leaves the Command distance should the Form Fire team SA come into effect, yes?

Edit: Come to think of it, a 3 team of Orcas Moving across the Battle field, having a 3 set of heavy machine gunners providing close support/defense sounds really nasty.

And while I'm at it, in the 2 actions spent he uses 1 action to detach his weapon and 1 to disembark. This sounds like the Orca Gunner got a mounted HMG when it comes to game rules, while the second he's holding it. Perhaps a mounted is only limited to a gun that is not possible to remove at all, but still it sounds interesting if it would mean that while the gunner is on board he would actually (even if the rules say otherwise I know) have a better combat modifier when firing further away because the Gun is stuck on the Orca itself.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2009, 09:28:46 AM by Pax »

Offline Lopis

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Re: Drivers and Crew Actions
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2009, 09:58:09 AM »
As I understand Pax I read FormFireteam like him.

I think the SA hops in if leaving CD without having to "activate" it by using an action.
So he could step down with one action left.


The Orca gunner/driver actually has a mounted HMG, the M-100A1.
the optional rider/backseater uses his hand-manageable M-89 HMG, perhaps in an imaginary gun-cradle from which he has to free it in order to step off the orca.
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Pax

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Re: Drivers and Crew Actions
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2009, 10:32:00 AM »
Quote
The Orca gunner/driver actually has a mounted HMG, the M-100A1.
the optional rider/backseater uses his hand-manageable M-89 HMG, perhaps in an imaginary gun-cradle from which he has to free it in order to step off the orca.

It counts as a HMG? I was actually considering it a cannon, it fires two shots due to the automatically loading system but still not a HMG but a cannon. 2 shells fired (cannon) instead of a burst of 20-30 bullets (HMG)