Author Topic: EE prices  (Read 18795 times)

Offline Sylvas

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Re: EE prices
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2006, 07:39:58 PM »
I've read somewhere that for the cost of the chemicals, equipment, and molds for plastic minis, one can produce up to 6 metal minis for the same cost.

For a large company (like say, for example, a certain British one), this isn't a problem because 1.) they have a larger customer base, but also 2.) because they have slowly converting their product lines to plastic for the last 10 years.  It has only been in the last 5 years that they have been radically changing their products from metal to plastic.

Now how do the Brits make up the cost of this conversion?  Well, by their prices of course.  Now, a 10 man plastic squad for just about any force for 40K comes out to about $35 American.  They have been slowly increasing their prices for about the last 7 years in preparation for this.  Now, for a beautiful army of entirely plastic minis will cost about $400 American (for a tournament army of 1750 pts).

Now, maybe I am in the minority here, but I prefer metal minis.  I prefer them because they are more durable (I have 2 kids, ages 4 and 2), and they hold onto paint a lot better than plastics.  When I played 40K exclusively, it would burn me up to have to pay those costs for plastic minis, while I could justify the cost for metal ones.

Thanks for listening to my rant...I'll pass the soapbox to others now.

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Offline Pietia

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Re: EE prices
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2006, 12:30:53 AM »
The cost of plastic minis mass-produced by most of the miniature producing companies is completely unjustified. Production costs are minimal (on mass scale) - you can see that by looking at plastic scale models by companies such as Italeri - a plastic set for LAV-25 costs roughly 10 dollars (here, in Europe). It uses more (and better) plastic, more complicated moulds etc. than any 40k squad box, yet they're selling it for 3.5 time less than the squad box (and they still have profit). Most of the miniature price is overhead and profit of the gaming company, as well as the store that's selling it. The prices are so high, because gamers are willing to pay them, they have little to do with actual manufacturing costs.

Offline Coil

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Re: EE prices
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2006, 01:49:07 AM »
I've read somewhere that for the cost of the chemicals, equipment, and molds for plastic minis, one can produce up to 6 metal minis for the same cost.
Why on earth would someone produce plastic minis if they were 6 times more expensive than metal? It just does not make sense.

The cost of plastic minis mass-produced by most of the miniature producing companies is completely unjustified.
The marginal cost of producing one plastic mini may be minimal but in order to produce that one mini you have to invest a lot into equipment, molds etc not to mention sculpting and design. If you were to set the price at the level of the marginal cost of production you wouldn't get your money back on what you've spent on design and other costs.

Quote
Most of the miniature price is overhead and profit of the gaming company, as well as the store that's selling it. The prices are so high, because gamers are willing to pay them, they have little to do with actual manufacturing costs.
Price is based on what the customer is willing to pay (as it should be). Manufacturers and stores have to get their other costs covered as well otherwise they will not be able to stay in business.

Now on to a short example (I am making all of these numbers up as I have no idea what the actual numbers are).

Plastic vs Metal minis

Price: Both minis are priced at $5.

Fixed costs
Sculpting:
Metal $500
Plastic $500

Molds:
Metal $500
Plastic $10 000

Production costs (marginal costs)
Material and labour cost of producing one mini:
Metal $1
Plastic $0.01

In order to break even the metal model has to sell at least 250 copies. The break even point for the plastic model is 2143 copies. If we assume that the costs of making the molds for plastics are even higher perhaps 100 000 then it has to sell over 20 000 units in order to recoup the investment.

Offline Ruther

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Re: EE prices
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2006, 02:24:02 AM »
I searched a bit through the net ^^

at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_model

While injection-molding is the predominant manufacturing process for plastic models, the high costs of equipment and making molds make it unsuitable for lower-yield production. Thus, models of minor and obscure subjects are often manufactured using alternative processes. Vacuum forming is popular for aircraft models, though assembly is more difficult than for injection-molded kits. Resin-casting, popular with smaller manufacturers, particularly 'after-market' firms (but also producers of full kits) yields a greater degree of detail moulded in situ, but as the moulds used don't last as long, the price of such kits is considerably higher. In recent times, the latest releases from major manufacturers offer unprecedented detail that is a match for the finest resin kits, often including high-quality mixed-media (photo-etched brass, turned aluminium) parts.

So as Coil already said its a question of how much one can sell of a Mini, as the break even point is harder to reach, ie selling stuff wich is more expensive in production to lower prices. Guess why GW wants so much money for their toy soldiers^^ (if they had'nt developed their prices slowly towards it, they most likely wouldnt be able to use plastic as well)
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Offline Pietia

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Re: EE prices
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2006, 02:39:53 AM »
Let's take a look at the numbers from another point of view:
fixed costs:
sculpting 2 sprues of multipart miniatures (the GW way): $5K - i am also making up this number
injection mold for each sprue: $30K (so 60K total) - this is based research I've made some time ago
production costs:
per sprue: $0.5 - guessing this one. Includes printing a box.

If you sell each box squad (containing 2 sprues - Space Marines for example) for $20, you need to sell 3421 boxes to cover your expenses (not counting the overhead for running business, taxes etc). If the box contains 4 sprues (Imperial Guard, Tyranids), you have to sell 3611 boxes.  That is roughly 1K guys playing the army you've made the models for, each buying between 3 and 4 boxes (a realistic estimate, I think). From large company's point of view, with tens of thousands of people playing each army it is not a problem. An additional benefit of using injection molding is the fact, that metal molds used in this process are much more durable than molds used in metal casting - you do not need to replace them for years.

The cost of making a mold is closer to 30-40K$ than 100K$, at least for miniatures (I've done some "asking around" and internet research some time ago, the cost of mold depends more on the size of the part than on the level of detail required).

Of course for a small company there's no point in investing in production of plastic minis.

Offline raia

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Re: EE prices
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2006, 03:35:37 AM »
And question is:
How many model types you can make with one sprue and with one model?

If company wants capture costumers then you must produce min 10 metalic models. And now, can you compare prices for metal and plastic models?

Plastic models are good for customers, who wants "colourful" army (Im this costumer type). Yes, I love metal models, it is good feeling take them in hand  ;) , but I dont want 3 types of Disciples of my 30 Disciples army?!


Dont tell me that Warzone has less than 15k players on the world.

Offline Veez

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Re: EE prices
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2006, 05:22:35 AM »
Actually I'd argue that right now Warzone does have less than 15K players in the world.  I'm not saying that may not inprove but it is a niche game in a niche market right now.  Hinted at things like a movie and the return of SoTC (with movie tie-in) could bolster those numbers but the reason EE does fine with it's limited number of people is the (so far) limited demand.  Now of course this is all speculation and Coil can prove me right or wrong with no aplogies necessary for either side, but I'm not seeing signs of humongous figure movement just yet.
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Offline Anubis31

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Re: EE prices
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2006, 07:53:27 AM »
I can say from conversation that the idea of plastics have come up. but the problem is there are certain figures that no one buts or is bought in a limited quanty. (personalities, ect.) It would be a major major loss to create plastics molds for all figures in line. This would then leave us with a massive amount of overhead and excess stock. For company our size it is not economical for GW. Im sure it is. They have some beautiful minis, but look at it.. You get a 10 pack of metal minis form us for 25$, you get a 5 pack of minis form them for nearly 40 or so.

Rule book is that same thing, one book with all armies for us for 50$.

Faction books All and rulle book come to  50$ for rulebook, 20$ chaos codex, 20$ daemonhunters, 15$ dark eldar, 15$ eldar, 20$ IG, 20$ necrons, 15$ orcs, 20$ space marine, space wolves, $10 dark angels, $10 blood angels, $20 tau, 20$ tyranids, 20$ witch hunters.

So for the rulebook, and all factions it would cost.....$285

OUCH.

Offline joshuaslater

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Re: EE prices
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2006, 08:04:23 AM »
How much will it cost to replace your disgraced Firstborn army after their upcoming smackdown/debacle?   ;)
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Offline Coil

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Re: EE prices
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2006, 08:55:57 AM »
Coil can prove me right or wrong
I have absolutely no idea how many current players there are nor do I have any idea how many minis EE sells (since I am not an EE employee). :)

One figure I do know is that Paradox Entertainment write in their annual report that over 150 000 games of Warzone have been sold worldwide. They do not give any timeperiod for that or what they mean by "games".

Offline raia

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Re: EE prices
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2006, 10:49:33 AM »
I can say from conversation that the idea of plastics have come up. but the problem is there are certain figures that no one buts or is bought in a limited quanty. (personalities, ect.) It would be a major major loss to create plastics molds for all figures in line. This would then leave us with a massive amount of overhead and excess stock. For company our size it is not economical for GW. Im sure it is. They have some beautiful minis, but look at it.. You get a 10 pack of metal minis form us for 25$, you get a 5 pack of minis form them for nearly 40 or so.

Rule book is that same thing, one book with all armies for us for 50$.

Faction books All and rulle book come to  50$ for rulebook, 20$ chaos codex, 20$ daemonhunters, 15$ dark eldar, 15$ eldar, 20$ IG, 20$ necrons, 15$ orcs, 20$ space marine, space wolves, $10 dark angels, $10 blood angels, $20 tau, 20$ tyranids, 20$ witch hunters.

So for the rulebook, and all factions it would cost.....$285

OUCH.

Yes, It is true. But these books are sold with many new scatches (pics), information about modeling, painting and for main  - fluff that drags new players and old players inspire! And with theirs box model is same. Very good quality, more pictures and so on....

And for your information: I spend 2000$ for WH40K. I have two huge armies and many fluff books. I love this world. I love Mutant Chronicles fluff too, but I cannot get them anywhere!

Why cannot you made individuals by metal and common (doom)troopers by plastic? (as Imperial Regulars and Bauhaus forces).

Why cannot you made more games systems as e.g. Rackham with their Confrontation, Ragnarock and Hybrid?

Offline Jibbajabbawocky

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Re: EE prices
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2006, 11:27:18 AM »
Why cannot you made more games systems as e.g. Rackham with their Confrontation, Ragnarock and Hybrid?

I would like to see a Modern skirmish game using the UWZ rules. :)
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Offline Ruther

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Re: EE prices
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2006, 11:48:45 AM »
Why cannot you made more games systems as e.g. Rackham with their Confrontation, Ragnarock and Hybrid?

Because all good things need lots of time  ;)
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Offline Catinator

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Re: EE prices
« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2006, 07:12:25 AM »
I have literally tons of metal and plastic minis but despite the weight (and X-ray) issue I like metal better.  ;)

Pastic: Despite all the the advancement Excelsior made - I still think the production costs for plastic is still not justified. Bigger customer base would be needed IMHO (but I would love to be wrong in this issue). If the movie and other projects start to bring in enough money - I would really like to see basic troops in plastic. I`m statisfied with the Imperial and Bauhaus grunts. But it is a hard decision Thom and the crew has to make.

Variety for basic troop is a must. Not everyone is good at converting.  :(

Just my 2 cents.

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Offline Veez

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Re: EE prices
« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2006, 08:33:12 PM »
 Good point but look how much variation you were able to get with the original four-packs of basic troopies.  Four poses, close enough to be the same unit but different enought that they produced a nice variation when placed together in a large formation.  Now if you are the type whom every figure has to be a distinct individual (and I'm not knocking this at all) then plastics are they way to go.  Even then you are going to be limited-as fantasatic as the Ducal Militia and Imperial Regular sculpts are, there are only so many ways to fit them together.   I think it is a long way off before we can expect to see the GW Space Marine Infinite Pose style figs come this way.  In fact I think plastics too early can be bad.  As good as the SOTC sculps were/are, I would not want an entire force like that (look at the Robogear troop figs [not the robots] for examples of plastics that have nowhere to go).

Besides, EE's metal figs are still cheaper than GW's plastics for the most part.  Good thing I bought all my Space Marines in the 90's.
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