Author Topic: Activation of a squad inside a transport  (Read 14074 times)

Offline PhillySniper

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #45 on: January 05, 2008, 12:40:01 PM »
The problems not solved. I just am not going to debate a point with people who say that I dont know tactics so I want to change the rule.  I see the rules as saying something different so I asked for a clarification. 
In most other instances specific rules for weapons, characters, special abilities etc outweight the general game mechanic rules. But in THIS case people want to hold onto a general game rule pg 40 when the rules for transports pg 90, 91 CLEARLY say something different.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2008, 12:46:39 PM by PhillySniper »
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Offline Lopis

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #46 on: January 05, 2008, 12:54:28 PM »
Hmm Ok then it seemed only solved for me.

Looks like I´m deep in between the different factions with my thinking of how it should work, that for me it seemed clear since I foudn a way of not breaking all the rules and doing it in a way of which I think (and I think my playing group would also) it would work.

In this case I revoke all I said and now I claim the opposite!

Or just take the smiley (and the parenthesis) for irony  ;D  <-- not this one, this one is really happy/friendly as this one -->  ;D
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Offline Coil

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #47 on: January 05, 2008, 02:41:42 PM »
I'll be back soon with my take on it.

Offline brynolf

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #48 on: January 05, 2008, 04:31:47 PM »
Besides as long as the vehicle is closer to the enemy the opposing troops would have to pass a Tac Sense roll to attack them rather than the vehicle.

Just have to add a "oh, that's one thing that got changed since 2nd ed". Size affecting targeting priorities, that is... oh well, not a very important point in this discussion.

What I think is confusing about page 40 is the definition of the "Passenger unit". They act just like a crew member, but once disembarked they use all remaining actions, effectively breaking the bond to the vehicle... (Ok, and page 91 further explains why the "Passenger unit" term is used at all; since the passengers can consist of models from several units. That cleared things up a bit).

I also think the "the disembarked guys must use all their actions before the rest of the vehicle can use their non-wait actions" confuses things a bit; if the passengers activate at the same time as the transport, none of them can be Waiting anyway, right? I mean, since they are all active.

After reading the relevant pages, I think I've got it down to: it's not very clearly written, as you have to read several pages very far apart from each other, but once you've done that, yes, Seamus, Topkick and their "camp" is right here. I think these rules are way too complicated and messy, though. Definately a hot houserule candidate.

By the way, this message was way to complicated and messy, too. I hope you understand what I'm trying to say. Stupid swede...  ;D
« Last Edit: January 05, 2008, 04:44:53 PM by brynolf »

Offline Topkick

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #49 on: January 05, 2008, 09:34:34 PM »
The problems not solved. I just am not going to debate a point with people who say that I dont know tactics so I want to change the rule.  I see the rules as saying something different so I asked for a clarification. 
In most other instances specific rules for weapons, characters, special abilities etc outweight the general game mechanic rules. But in THIS case people want to hold onto a general game rule pg 40 when the rules for transports pg 90, 91 CLEARLY say something different.

I tried to stay out of this because I knew my answer would not solve the problem and would tick someone off. However you specifically PM'ed me and asked for my opinion. I'm sorry that you don't like the result of your request. I tried to be polite and include the phrase - "in my opinion". I do not see that the rules are conflicted and said so.The rule on page 40 is not a general rule - it is the rule for using actions in the situation as I read it. To do it the way you seem to advocate gives two units their actions instead of having alternating actions which is a key element of the game.

The way you want to do it, where the passenger unit has all it's actions after the crew has done theirs, violates the alternating actions and unbalances the game because of that double activiation. Now if you want the vehicle to move and then sit there while your opponent activates and performs actions with one of his units before you activate the passenger unit - that I could support.

Your argument seems to hinge on the phrase Passenger Unit. I believe that it is a name and not a differentiation of units. The transported squad is technically not crew but nor is it an independent unit. It functions in this instance like a parasite - dependent on the host. I may be wrong and if I am I will accept the ruling in good grace. However, I am done with this debate. I refuse to get drug into an escalating arguement. My opinion was asked for; I stated it; when challenged I defended it. Now I choose to go back to the sidelines and watch. This time I hope I will be smart enough not to get dragged into something like this again.
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Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #50 on: January 05, 2008, 10:35:15 PM »
My two cents, for what it’s worth considering the fall of the value of the $US ;).
(Remember, my opinion is no more or less valid than another is, and should not be mistaken as an official answer unless the FAQ Team makes it so)

Pg. 40

VEHICLES AND USING ACTIONS
    In general, when a Vehicle is activated, any crew riding within it must expend their actions simultaneously. If the driver uses his first action to drive, any other crewman must spend their first action before the driver can spend his second. If the driver spends his second action before the crew takes their first, the unspent first crew actions are lost, unless a Special Ability declares otherwise.
    Models inside a transport are considered a part of a single passenger Unit. This passenger Unit takes actions just like an additional crewmember. During the passenger Unit activation, one or more of the transporting1 models may elect to disembark by spending one action. They must then spend all their remaining actions before any other member of the crew or passengers may take an additional non-Wait action. Note that any number of passengers may elect to disembark during passenger Unit activation. See Armored Personnel Carriers for more detail.


    The above rule is, in and of itself, clear.  Models riding inside the transport are treated like crew, but are a separate Unit who must spend their actions in conjunction with the crew of the vehicle while riding in the vehicle. They may disembark the vehicle during any activation, but then must spend the rest of their actions before the vehicle returns to its activation, no matter how many models disembark. They have as many actions left as their original number of actions less the number of actions that the Vehicle has taken, plus their current action.

Pp. 90-91

    Armored Personnel Carriers (APC)
    Vehicles designed to carry troops are noted as APCs in the Special Rules portion of their Profile. The number that follows this designation represents the number of SZ 2 models that it can carry. A Vehicle may carry double the amount of SZ 1 than it can SZ 2. Alternately, a vehicle can carry half that amount in SZ3 models.2

2.0- Boarding a Transport (Embarking)
    A model that wishes to Board a Transport must Move into Base Contact with the Transport Vehicle and expend one action to Board. Once boarded, the model’s Turn is ended and it is considered to be a part of the Vehicle’s Compliment until it disembarks.
    Models may board in any order, and may start the game deployed inside of a Transport. Should all the models in a Squad not make it into the transport or are too many for the capacity of the Vehicle, and then those models are considered left behind. Unless the Squad leader is with them they will be considered out of Command Distance and suffer the penalties associated with that state.
    For an embarked modes3, place the Unit Card of the Boarded model next to the Transport Vehicle until that model Disembarks.
    The sophisticated locking systems and vigilance by the Vehicle’s crew keeps enemy models from boarding a Transport. Therefore, no enemy model may Board a Transport Vehicle.

2.1- Traveling in a Transport
    Unless otherwise stated in the profile, models inside a transport are considered protected by the Vehicle. They cannot be directly harmed unless the Vehicle is destroyed. While in the transport, Squads being transported are considered a single passenger Unit. During this passenger Unit activation, one or more of the models may elect to disembark.

2.2- Disembarking a Transport
    During the passenger Unit activation, one or more of the transported models may disembark. Models that disembark spend 1 action to leave the transport. They should be placed in base contact with the transport exit point, and are required to spend their remaining actions before anyone in the transport may take another non-Wait action. Any model (friendly or enemy) in base contact with the transport’s exit point will block transporting models from being able to disembark.


    Again, the rules are clear, and I do not see any confusion.  Models riding as passengers are not, actually, crew, but must spend their actions in the same order as the crew until they disembark, at which point they must spend all of their actions before the vehicle resumes spending its remaining actions.  In other words, if they wish to disembark on the first action, then the get to disembark with one action and spend their remaining actions before the vehicle spends it second action.  If they do not disembark on the first Vehicle action, then the passenger Unit loses its first action. If they wait until the Vehicle has taken three actions, they will only have their original number of actions, less the three actions the Vehicle has taken, plus their current action.

    Example:  A transport is carrying a Squad of Imperial Regulars (four troopers, a Sergeant and an HMG Spec). The player activates his Transport, and Moves on the first action.  The player then decides to disembark the passenger Unit during the passenger Unit activation.  The Player moves the first model into base contact with the exit point of the Transport on its first action, moves 4” on its second action, and fires at a Machinator Mk I on its third.  The next model is moved in similar fashion, and all models are disembarked.  The Vehicle then spends its second action to Move.  Remaining actions are spent.

    Example:  A transport is carrying a Squad of Children of Ilian (16 kids and a Scion).  The vehicle spends three actions Moving.  The player then wishes to disembark the passenger unit.  The first model is moved into base contact with the exit point with its third action, and winds up blocking the door for any other models wishing to disembark.  The activation for the vehicle and its passenger unit is complete, and the lone disembarked child is out of Command Distance.

    Unless I am misunderstanding something, disembarking from a Transport is clear.  Where there may be some confusion is whether a Squad that embarks a vehicle can then disembark during the Vehicle’s activation. The answer to this is not as clear.

    Once a model embarks a vehicle, its turn is over.  Therefore, the model cannot disembark until the [edit] following turn.[edit]  However, because the model(s) becomes part of the vehicle’s compliment, does this mean that the vehicle’s turn is over, now, too?  I would say, “no.”  After all, a vehicle could move, then receive troops, and can disgorge troops during its activation, therefore it should be allowed to receive models, then move, or any combination of moving and receiving/disgorging.

    Have I cleared this up, at all?  Have I made it less clear?  Does this make sense?

    I welcome feedback and counterpoint.


1 - should read, "transported"
2 - this has been FAQ'd
3 - I believe that this should be translated as, "For any embarked model(s)"
« Last Edit: January 05, 2008, 10:39:57 PM by dmcgee1 »
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Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #51 on: January 05, 2008, 10:57:51 PM »
in my example I started in Action 1 (...)

unfortunately, it is wrong..


in normal action spending it is true that the second action of that guy from the passenger-unit is linked to the actions of the vehicle.

after the exit-action however he _must_ spend all of his actions _at once_

so your example looks like this:

1st Action:
a) driver drives or stands and looks
b) gunner shoots
c) boarded guy disembarks....
d) boarded guy can´t disembark because there´s no free space (another one in the exit door) spends 2. and 3. AC

2nd Action
a) driver does his
b) gunner guns
c) disembarked guy moves and makes the door free is done
d) another boarded guy disembarks and blocks the door...... spends action 2+3

right?

Correct, almost.  The 2nd Action would only occur once all models wishing to disembark have done so, and spent their remaining actions.  Therefore, the 2nd disembarked guy acts from his first action on, not from hhis second action on.


@useful:

well, to link the actions to the vehicle meas the famous (GW rhino rush, i remember?) tactic "i move my transporter, disembark and shoot (with 2 A)" is not possible

on the second turn it´s still qute weak because disembarking effectively costs 2 Actions: get out + get away


-> it´s really not to rush but to transport.

whether this is more or less "realistic" i don´t know..

I concur
« Last Edit: January 05, 2008, 11:31:54 PM by dmcgee1 »
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline Coil

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #52 on: January 06, 2008, 12:39:03 AM »
I have read through all the arguments in the thread and also the relevant sections of the rulebook.

I totally agree with Seamus' answer to the original question. That means that disembarking on the 3rd action will be rather silly since you will only be able to get one model out.

Does this make transports useless? No, you just have to use them in a different way. There is no UWZ equivalent of the GW Rhino-rush. Instead I would move up and fire on the way during the first turn and try to end the transport's 3rd action out of LOS from any nasty RLs. Then on turn 2 I would move forward an action or two and then have the passengers jump out (Topkick had a good description of how to do it).

There is one issue which may be slightly problematic within the rules and that is if the transport can drive away after a squad boards it. A strict reading would imply that no it cannot move since the passengers have no actions left to "Ride". My opinion is that yes the transport would be able to move anyway if it has not been activated yet that turn.


Quote
They should be placed in base contact with the transport exit point, and are required to spend their remaining actions before anyone in the transport may take another non-Wait action.
The reason for this little oddity is that  without it you would still have the exit being blocked a lot. But it is not so odd after all since the normal rule is to activate one model at a time performing all 3 actions before continuing with the next. When the passengers start to disembark the temporary "passenger unit" is dissolved. The vehicle  (and crew) also hold while the passengers disembark. This means that the vehicle may have actions left after the passengers have exited and moved away. These can then be used to get the transport away or perhaps move up and block LOS.

/Andreas


Offline Seamus

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #53 on: January 06, 2008, 05:34:48 AM »
Unless I am misunderstanding something, disembarking from a Transport is clear.  Where there may be some confusion is whether a Squad that embarks a vehicle can then disembark during the Vehicle’s activation. The answer to this is not as clear.

    Once a model embarks a vehicle, its turn is over.  Therefore, the model cannot disembark until the [edit] following turn.[edit]  However, because the model(s) becomes part of the vehicle’s compliment, does this mean that the vehicle’s turn is over, now, too?  I would say, “no.”  After all, a vehicle could move, then receive troops, and can disgorge troops during its activation, therefore it should be allowed to receive models, then move, or any combination of moving and receiving/disgorging..

I agree with you.  To put it a different way, you have two different units on the table; the transport and the squad who intend to board it.  The turn they board, is the turn in which they merge with the transport.  If it hasn't activated yet, it can still activate and move on that turn.  On the next turn, the squad inside becomes the member of the crew known as the 'passenger unit' and they have a choice, ride or disembark.  At the point they disembark, they become a seperate unit, completing all their actions model by model.
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Offline PhillySniper

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #54 on: January 06, 2008, 01:52:41 PM »
@Hal

Yup I did ask for and get your opinion. I dont want you to think that you were the only one to state that I need to change tactics. I received a couple of emails as well that made that statement. I appreciate open discourse and thank you for your opinion.

Now if you want the vehicle to move and then sit there while your opponent activates and performs actions with one of his units before you activate the passenger unit - that I could support.

That is the point that I was trying to make through all of this.
But seeing as I am in the minority, I will admit that I was reading the rules incorrectly. I apologise if I offended anyone with my words, phrasing or attitude. I thank you all for the debate.
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Offline Topkick

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #55 on: January 06, 2008, 02:51:10 PM »
@Hal

Yup I did ask for and get your opinion. I dont want you to think that you were the only one to state that I need to change tactics. I received a couple of emails as well that made that statement. I appreciate open discourse and thank you for your opinion.

Sorry Brother I have been worrying about a job interview and the waiting to hear back is getting to me. I apologize if I was overly harsh.
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Offline PhillySniper

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #56 on: January 06, 2008, 02:53:39 PM »
No worries big guy  ;D
Hakunamatata  ;)
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