Author Topic: Close Combat and Reach  (Read 5334 times)

Offline dmcgee1

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Close Combat and Reach
« on: December 27, 2007, 05:10:08 AM »
Close Combat range is defined as base contact.

Polearms give a 1" reach to CC attacks.  Is the model still considered to be in CC if attacking from up to 1" away with a polearm?  Can the enemy attack back?  Can the model auto-break from CC if not in base contact with the enemy?
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Offline Dragon62

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Re: Close Combat and Reach
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2007, 06:09:55 AM »
If the model does not have a reach weapon it cannot strike back until it moves into base to base contact. You only have to make a Break Test when in base to base contact.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2007, 06:25:59 AM by Dragon62 »
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Offline Archer

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Re: Close Combat and Reach
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2007, 06:13:27 AM »
Close Combat range is defined as base contact.

Correct.

Polearms give a 1" reach to CC attacks.  Is the model still considered to be in CC if attacking from up to 1" away with a polearm?

No- he is supporting the assault but is not locked in CC.  If you look, the bonus for charging and such is not granted nor is the multiple model bonus (iirc).  I will do some reading/research on this later but I'm fairly certain I am correct tho.

(Otherwise I have been gipping myself with the Valkyries)

  Can the enemy attack back?  Can the model auto-break from CC if not in base contact with the enemy?

first part: No, unless said model also has a reach weapon.... and therefore, there is no need to break as they are not tied up in base to base contact which answers the second part.  The idea of the breakaway is a model tied up in CC needs to shove/stun/sucker his opponent long enough to get away.
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Offline Lopis

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Re: Close Combat and Reach
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2007, 06:24:47 AM »
As I read the rules:

Itīs considered a normal CC for both of the models, so all rules apply. You still would have to use the CC stats of a secondary weapon and not the PB for a "ranged" combat. Seems a bit weird, since polearms are two-handed, but it gives the point.
Itīs a normal CC. So the models canīt auot-breakaway. Only the range of the combat is modified.
The real problems come on further thinking through the whole matter.
As the model is one inch away from the opponent he can only strike back with a range of at least one inch. So since itīs a CC he cant use a ranged weapon AND no CC weapon if not also a polearm! Since normally the models carry only weapons for base-to-base CC you can outmaneuver them......
they have to make a move action, which isnīt a problem, since they have to charge you anyway to come into CC BUT if they want to move they have to make a break-away....!!!
Thatīs fantastic.
Never thought of this use of Polearms to lock the opponents in CC...
The opponent even hasnīt the chance to countercharge, since your model stops at one inch away from it. I mean countercharge is possible, but useless, since the opponent canīt strike back within reach!
Only possibility is to brace for the charge to nullify the bonus.
AND on top of that the models are safe from sweep-attacks since they canīt reach either. Even with a break-away combined charge-action it will be hard to get into contact with more models....

Funny thing as I think of that.

Oh I want to test these Valkyres and Vestals with the Spears  ;D

EDIT: Forget the bracing, thereīs no bonus to the charge anyway...
« Last Edit: December 27, 2007, 06:27:25 AM by Lopis »
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Offline Southpaw

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Re: Close Combat and Reach
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2007, 06:28:31 AM »
Close Combat range is defined as base contact.

Polearms give a 1" reach to CC attacks.  Is the model still considered to be in CC if attacking from up to 1" away with a polearm?  Can the enemy attack back?  Can the model auto-break from CC if not in base contact with the enemy?

1. No I don't think so. CC is defined as base-contact. The way we've always played is that models with Polearms were free to disengage, as they were not technically in CC.

2. Assuming both models have only CC weapons, then no, a model being attacked from 1" away by a model with a Polearm cannot attack back, as he cannot reach that far. He must Charge, or Shoot.

3. See #1 for this one. That's how we've always played it. Since they're not technically in CC, they can disengage. The 1" reach is simply a benefit of the Polearm.

It is important to note that there is one marked difference between Polearms in Chronopia and UWZ.

In Chronopia Polearms CANNOT be used to go over the maximum # of attackers, however in UWZ they CAN. Whether this changes the nuances and interpretations is open to discussion.

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Offline Lopis

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Re: Close Combat and Reach
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2007, 06:34:12 AM »
Ok some new post while I was typing:
Hereīs what I still think:


Close Combat range is defined as base contact

Correct..

No, itīs not. CC is defined as the result of a charge!
p 48: In
UWZ, whenever a model Charges an enemy model. Close
Combat ensues. Charging is the only way that enemy models
may come into base contact. The statistic of utmost importance
when dealing with Close Combat is a model's Close Combat
(CC) value.

Yes it says that charging is the only way to come into base contact, but with polearms you dont have to...


Polearms give a 1" reach to CC attacks.  Is the model still considered to be in CC if attacking from up to 1" away with a polearm?

No- he is supporting the assault but is not locked in CC.  If you look, the bonus for charging and such is not granted nor is the multiple model bonus (iirc).  I will do some reading/research on this later but I'm fairly certain I am correct tho.

(Otherwise I have been gipping myself with the Valkyries)

I still think itīs anormal CC where the opponent is locked..
.

  Can the enemy attack back?  Can the model auto-break from CC if not in base contact with the enemy?

first part: No, unless said model also has a reach weapon.... and therefore, there is no need to break as they are not tied up in base to base contact which answers the second part.  The idea of the breakaway is a model tied up in CC needs to shove/stun/sucker his opponent long enough to get away.


I think still itīs a CC and the opponent has to break away. Since its a CC he cant use ranged weapons on PB and not in CC, because the reach isnīt sufficient.
And if I harras you with a Polearm you still will have to shove/stun/sucker/duck to get away  ;)
« Last Edit: December 27, 2007, 06:36:26 AM by Lopis »
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Offline Lopis

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Re: Close Combat and Reach
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2007, 06:39:25 AM »
Damn... I have to train a bit on quoting....

I made my answers and opinions italic in the post above....

And where is covered that the bonus for multiple attackers doesnīt apply ?

Doesnīt make pretty much sense to me.....

Vestals even have Group assault SA .... ???
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Offline Archer

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Re: Close Combat and Reach
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2007, 08:46:51 AM »
Ok....

Section 6.2.1:  Once a model is in Base to Base Contact, the only actions it may use are actions to fight as detailed in Section 8 (Close Combat) or to break away as detailed in Section 6.2.3.

  Now, the question is in regards to Pole Arms.  Under the explanation and description listed in Section 20.3.  Now, the description states that "a model may charge or counter-charge a target model up to 1 Inch further than its full movement and still perfom an attack.  However, if the model is not in Base to Base Contact, the model does not get any charge bonuses for such attacks."

  Now, this means a Pole Arm model may get a CC attack without being in Base to Base... and therefore being locked in Close Combat.  He/She/It can shoot, pick their nose, fart or whatever as they are not in Base To Base, which is the only way models on opposite sides can be in CC.

  And since the models are not base to base or locked in CC, there is no need for a Break Away action.

It also means Group Assault should not apply as the action is *TECHNICALLY* not one taken in close combat.
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Offline PhillySniper

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Re: Close Combat and Reach
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2007, 10:38:28 AM »
@Archer

Thats how I read it and play it.
The extra 1" of the polearm increases the attack range of CC without endangering the weilder to a counter-attack.
Look at it this way: The Behemoth has 3 actions:< remember he has a 4" reach due to his arms and the length of the Azoghar>
Action 1 moves to within 4" of target.
Action 2 swings with azoghar < due to weapons length he is within range> He gets no charge bonus because he isnt charging into CC hes moving into weapons range
Action 3 charges into CC with target earning charge bonus but losing the reach advantage of the azoghar

Thats the way I see it anyway.
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Offline jjdodger

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Re: Close Combat and Reach
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2007, 11:12:12 AM »
@Archer

Thats how I read it and play it.
The extra 1" of the polearm increases the attack range of CC without endangering the weilder to a counter-attack.
Look at it this way: The Behemoth has 3 actions:< remember he has a 4" reach due to his arms and the length of the Azoghar>
Action 1 moves to within 4" of target.
Action 2 swings with azoghar < due to weapons length he is within range> He gets no charge bonus because he isnt charging into CC hes moving into weapons range
Action 3 charges into CC with target earning charge bonus but losing the reach advantage of the azoghar

Thats the way I see it anyway.

That is correct, except, you can attack on the 1st action. and, especially in the hands of the Behemoth, can sweep from there on the 1st action, as you are making a "CC" attack:


  Now, the question is in regards to Pole Arms.  Under the explanation and description listed in Section 20.3.  Now, the description states that "a model may charge or counter-charge a target model up to 1 Inch further than its full movement and still perfom an attack.  However, if the model is not in Base to Base Contact, the model does not get any charge bonuses for such attacks."

  Now, this means a Pole Arm model may get a CC attack without being in Base to Base... and therefore being locked in Close Combat.  He/She/It can shoot, pick their nose, fart or whatever as they are not in Base To Base, which is the only way models on opposite sides can be in CC.

  And since the models are not base to base or locked in CC, there is no need for a Break Away action.

The way i am reading the rules, is, if you are not in Base Contact, with a pole arm, you may make a "CC Attack", even though you are NOT in Close Combat. see page 49, 8.6.1, charging, last paragraph, "If the model meets all these rules and gets into base contact with the enemy model, then it has Charged. Close Combat ensues, It may now make a CC attack action." And, Page 126, polearms, state: "Thus, a model may Charge or Countercharge a target model up to 1" further than its full Movement and still perform an attack." Its a "CC attack", but you are not in "Close combat". Make sense?

As to the Group Assault, the attacker gets the bonus "for every friendly model in base contact with the enemy model." Thus, if 4 models are in base contact with a behemoth, and a valkarye attacks from 1" away, the valkarye still gets the extra +4 CC/+4 DAM.

Offline Archer

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Re: Close Combat and Reach
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2007, 11:19:21 AM »
Look at it this way: The Behemoth has 3 actions:< remember he has a 4" reach due to his arms and the length of the Azoghar>
Action 1 moves to within 4" of target.


... and take a CC attack as part of that action- it's not a true charge/CC attack as you are not in Base to Base because of the Polearm rule, you allowed to take a "cheap shot" because of the reach in that action (example given in the descriptor for polearms (Section 20.3)).

  It's a fairly slick thing to do though to get an attack in without being able to reach BtB on that action.  The behemoth is an extreme case but with a normal s2 model like a Valk...

Valk is 5 inches away from her nearest enemy.  She runs forward 4 (mv) and takes a poke with her spear.  Should she skewer her foe, the next enemy within 5 inches can be attacked in the same fasion... or a normal charge at someone 4 inches away.
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Offline Archer

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Re: Close Combat and Reach
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2007, 11:20:18 AM »
Thanks Jeff. :)
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Offline jjdodger

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Re: Close Combat and Reach
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2007, 11:26:02 AM »
Actually.. re-reading sweep... "Poiearms with the Sweep ability are limited to the 1" range structure and do not gain any additional range for this kind of
attack." would tell me that you need to be in base contact. Sorry, Mr. Behemoth!  <Ducking and rolling VERY quickly!>

Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Close Combat and Reach
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2007, 11:31:12 AM »
Limiting them to the 1" range structure does not translate to base to base, dude, no matter which language you are using.  I do not believe that this is what is meant.  I believe that it is meant to say that it cannot attack another model if it is more than 1" for the last model attacked, as long as it is in Reach.
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Offline jjdodger

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Re: Close Combat and Reach
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2007, 11:35:36 AM »
ok, let me expand my explanation..

"Weapons with the Sweep Effect allow the attacker (in close combat) to strike at multiple targets per attack action . The
model with the sweep weapon designates the first opponent in Base-to-Base contact with it and makes a CC roll. Should this roll
hit and score a wound , the attack may continue to the next model within 1" of it. Each attack is resolved separately and should the
attack fail to either hit or wound, then the sweep attack is over. There is a penalty to hit during a sweep attack of -1 to the first
model, -2 to the second model, etc.
Poiearms with the Sweep ability are limited to the 1" range structure and do not gain any additional range for this kind of
attack"

To me, this means you must be in "CC", not just performing a "CC Attack". To be in "CC", you must be in base contact. Polearms allow a "CC Attack" from outside "CC".