Missile troops and twentys...

[joshuaslater]

For as much Chronopia as I play, I still find things I've missed in the rules, obvious things, and I am continually learning more of this game.

That being said, my local players crew has never played this one particular rule correctly at all!!  The rule states that if any one member of a misslile warband twenties out, ALL of them are done.  This was brought to my attention from Dennis "Cold Thunder" at Talamania.   D'OH I said!!  All this time we've just played where missile troops are the same as close combat troops.  If one model twenties out, that model is done, and we move on to the next one. 

Are we the only ones who play this way?  We have mixed feelings about the rule, and I want to hear your thoughts on it.

Cheers.

[Southpaw]

That's how I've always played it was well, if one of them 20's out, they're all done, per the rulebook. Although maybe I shouldn't, because it invariably happens at the most inopportune time possible.....

Archers in Chronopia are definitely a hit and miss gamble...no pun intended.

SP

[Topkick]

Surprise!!!!! I make it unanimous for the Boys From Illinois. Not exactly a major revealtion as Coldthunder, Southpaw and I have been gaming together for almost 20 years and playing Warzone and Chronopia since they first came out.

[troy-the-just]

For as much Chronopia as I play, I still find things I've missed in the rules, obvious things, and I am continually learning more of this game.

That being said, my local players crew has never played this one particular rule correctly at all!!  The rule states that if any one member of a misslile warband twenties out, ALL of them are done.  This was brought to my attention from Dennis "Cold Thunder" at Talamania.   D'OH I said!!  All this time we've just played where missile troops are the same as close combat troops.  If one model twenties out, that model is done, and we move on to the next one. 

Are we the only ones who play this way?  We have mixed feelings about the rule, and I want to hear your thoughts on it.

Cheers.

i think it is a crap rule and inconsistant.  if you are firing into close combat however and roll a 20, you automatically wound a friendly unit, but your warband keeps on a firing.  it isnt logical, doesnt make any sense, i think that the model should lose all actions not the entire warband

[joshuaslater]

That was along the lines of our thinking.  I'm sure it was placed there to keep missile troops from dominating the game, but having every member crap out because one models bowstring breaks seems a little off.  I know applying too much logic to a fantasy game is contraindicated, but in this case, maybe not.

EDIT:  What happens when you have half of the troop in CC and the other half of the troop shooting first?  Does this mean the unit loses its close combat attacks, or just those shooting?  Can someone roll a 20 on his first missile troop, but decide to have the others charge into CC to get around this?  The ruling could be clarified a little better for an instance such as that. 

[troy-the-just]

That was along the lines of our thinking.  I'm sure it was placed there to keep missile troops from dominating the game, but having every member crap out because one models bowstring breaks seems a little off.  I know applying too much logic to a fantasy game is contraindicated, but in this case, maybe not.

EDIT:  What happens when you have half of the troop in CC and the other half of the troop shooting first?  Does this mean the unit loses its close combat attacks, or just those shooting?  Can someone roll a 20 on his first missile troop, but decide to have the others charge into CC to get around this?  The ruling could be clarified a little better for an instance such as that. 

hmm, my understanding per the rules.  if the unit first fires missile weapons and roles a 20, all the remaining models lose their actions, pure and simple.  cant charge, doesnt matter if 1/2 were in cc.

i havent played or read the first edition, but maybe missile weapons were a bigger factor there.  here longbowmen etc.  (not cross bows)  have really taken it hard, with the minuses for medium and long range, the run rule has really hurt HOA, as it is hard to catch any troops in the range, unless they are in cc, (or really slow like dwarves) so its hard to hit, and the damage is 7 or less for most troops, it just isnt that persuasive to me that these units can dominate.  I have all but given up using my elven longbowmen, if i have a 2000 point army, ill take a warband, or if i am defending a structure, but give me a unit of crossbowmen any day, any time.  I think they went way too far in restricting these guys at this present time, and penalizing an entire warband for one bad role is without precedent in this game, and simply doesnt make sense, and further renders a whole type of troop minimally useless, in my opinion.

[joshuaslater]

Yup.  Clarification would help.  Say you had three of your Elven archers locked in CC.  The rest of the squad decides to shoot models not in CC.  First shooter twenties out.  Now why would the rest of the unit, especially those in CC lose their actions? 

EDIT: penalizing a whole unit with one bad die roll happens enough with Fear, Dread, Panic, etc.  I'm with you in your thinking however that maybe missile troops are penalized too harshly. 

We've been playing it wrong for a long time apparently, but since both parties are using the same ruling, it's at least fair in that we're both playing the same way. 

[troy-the-just]

under the rule as written, they all lose their actions in the example you described.  I am all for modifying unclear and ill-logical rules if the group you play with agrees, but i do get a bit uneasy in modifying a rule that is as clear as this one.  I would like to hear some justification for this rule though from those that were around when the 2nd edition was done.  I roll twenties a couple times a game, add that to all the problems with missile troops, and it makes them quite expensive in my opinion.

what about this example

1 of my axemen is engaged with a firstborn swordsmen (part of a whole warband), the rest of the  axe unit is engaged with first born repulsar, (and probably getting smacked around).  my archers fire on the swordsmen, but dont target the one in cc with my axmen.  my first archer 20s out, i see all he has to do is roll to see if he hit my axeman?

[joshuaslater]

As it stands, by the rules, it appears to be the case.  Before anyone gets too excited, let's keep this toy soldier fantasy game in perspective.  In any tournament or casual game, as long as people agree on the rules, or the house rules, before the first die is rolled, it's all good.

At my place, we don't have missile units 20 out by the book, but allow each model to act as discussed earlier.  I'm not proposing any radical change in Thom's ruleset, but laying out options for us old gamers to hash out.

I'll run this by Thom maybe next week and get his thoughts on it.  I'm willing to play the game either way; I would just alter my army lists a little in any event. 

I'm just amazed at how long us Philly players were doing it wrong all this time.  I may be stripped of my Emeritus status!! 

[Wedge]

While it may be in the rulebook, I have never played it as such.  I think it is a drastic change to the rules from 1st to 2nd edition and unnecessary.  I would never agree to play it that way and I don't even use missile troops that much.

Personally, I think it is a mistake.

Our group plays that if a 20 is rolled it ends THAT models actions not the entire warband.

[joshuaslater]

That's how we do it, and we love the game.  I'm not suggestin' changing the whole system, and I'll abide by the rule as it's written, but for games in my house, we "house" it the way you do.

[DogOWar]

    I read this rule, and chose to ignore it.  In 1st edition, which I played for years, missle troops were to powerful.  There were several reasons for this:

    1. only 2 "ranges".  this problem has been solved in the second edition, IMO.

    2. Being able to shoot from wait.  This has also been solved in the 2nd edition by having the troops role LD in order to shoot, and then applying a -4 to the role.  IMO this is a little over the top.  It should be one or the other, but not both.

    3.  Point cost compared to other models.  In the 1st edition, most warbands were more expensive when compared to missle troops.  In 2nd this is not the case.

    4.  There was no "run" in 1st edition.  The adition of RUN helps other models avoid alot of exposre to missle fire and HOA.  This helps limit them nicely, and forces the player to really think when using missle troops.

    5.  Damage in 1st edition was higher for arrows than in 2nd.  This is pretty self-explanitory.

     IMHO I think that this rule is completely unneccessay.  I think quite a bit has been done to rein in missle troops, especially bowmen.  I would not use this rule unless I played in a tournament setting and everybody wanted to play this way.  If this were the case I would play a force without bowmen.  Unfortunately. several armies in the game, due to their construction, need missle troops to help them out.  I think punishing them is unfair.

[joshuaslater]

That's laid out nicely DogOWar, and sums up all the limitations in a clear, concise, fashion.  That's exactly why we choose to ignore it, but again, if a tournament adheres to the letter, so will I. 

[PhillySniper]

I have one thing to say about HOA. I dont understand  < maybe its just me being dense>  Why  do you use LD for HOA? IMO it makes no sense that you have an ability that allows you to possibly hit multiple targets in one shot and its easier to use than your regular RC stat. I mean its hard to miss with an HOA when you use LD AND even if you dont make it, You get deviation.

With that ability I can understand the 20 out rule.

[joshuaslater]

We do apply that one.  Twenty out on an attack that requires everyone in concert, and yes, they all crap out.  The attack is based on the leadership score of the leader of the unit, and it's meant to be deadly.  It's a powerful special ability, but it's not always easy to use on a high terrain board with experienced players.