Author Topic: Ruling on HMG's, rifles, etc in CC  (Read 5295 times)

Offline chribu

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Ruling on HMG's, rifles, etc in CC
« on: June 26, 2007, 03:29:57 PM »
PFC said:
if no CC weapon, one handed firearms/smg's/melee weapons or natural Attack, then model may make unarmed CC attacks at -4 CC and ST DAM.  Rifles, HMG's, two handed Ranged Combat weapons etc that have a CC stat make attacks at ST DAM.  Bayonettes do full listed weapon damage plus any bonus's

is this to be considered an official faq team ruling or only a personal suggestion?

Offline chribu

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Re: Ruling on HMG's, rifles, etc in CC
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2007, 03:33:08 PM »
seems to be confirmed by (page 120):

Weapon Damage

  The Damage of a Weapon is dependant upon the situation.  While in Close Combat, a weapons damage is derived from the Strength (ST) value of the model striking with it (unless its a Sidearm, which relies on the bullets to do the damage). The better or more deadly the Melee weapon is, the greater the bonus to the model's ST value.

So I guess it is clear.
But a comment from the faq team members would be appreciated.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2007, 03:36:23 PM by chribu »

Offline Dr. Nick

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Re: Ruling on HMG's, rifles, etc in CC
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2007, 06:29:27 PM »
Quote
While in Close Combat, a weapons damage is derived from the Strength (ST) value of the model striking with it (unless its a Sidearm, which relies on the bullets to do the damage).

i thought the ruling was DAM of weapon with CC stat (assault rifles!) is not ST, but listed damage!

(like you say in your 1. post..)
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Offline Stalker

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Re: Ruling on HMG's, rifles, etc in CC
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2007, 07:27:51 PM »
I recall discussing this in an official capacity and what chribu has stated is correct.  The only exception is I do not recall the -4 to CC if unarmed.  CC weapons are self explainable. Side arms do the damage of the weapon.  Rifles and other larger firearms do strength damage of the model since it is being used as a club.

Perhaps another FAQ member can verify my recollect on the -4 CC for being unarmed.
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Offline Dr. Nick

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Re: Ruling on HMG's, rifles, etc in CC
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2007, 01:33:33 AM »

Quote
I recall discussing this in an official capacity and what chribu has stated is correct.

Quote
Rifles and other larger firearms do strength damage of the model since it is being used as a club.

this is contradictory!



rifles donīt use ST but DAM in CC....!

(that is in the faq and was not ruled different in the bayonet-thread, i think!(?))
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Offline Stalker

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Re: Ruling on HMG's, rifles, etc in CC
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2007, 07:47:37 AM »
Rifles, HMG's, two handed Ranged Combat weapons etc that have a CC stat make attacks at ST DAM. 

With chribu posting twice it's a little confusing but, this is what I was refering to.

Hopefully another FAQ member will help to clarify this.
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Offline Archer

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Re: Ruling on HMG's, rifles, etc in CC
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2007, 02:21:13 PM »
Rifles, HMG's, two handed Ranged Combat weapons etc that have a CC stat make attacks at ST DAM. 

With chribu posting twice it's a little confusing but, this is what I was refering to.

Hopefully another FAQ member will help to clarify this.

Here we go again....

  The FAQ is wrong.  The rule book has the answers and while scattered around a bit, it clearly says the following pieces.  (page reference numbers included)

Section 8.5, page 49 (top of page)

Unless otherwise stated in a model’s profile, models may not make Ranged Combat attacks while engaged in Close Combat. Nor can they use any special equipment that is not related to Close Combat while engaged in Close Combat. Items that require no active effort on the part of the user (such as gas masks and environmental suits) are an exception to this rule.

Section 21, page 127 under heading of Close Combat:

  "This range comes into play when a model is in Base contact with an enemy model and attempting to use an equipped weapon on that enemy model.  While Melee Weapons are best at these ranges, most other weapons suffer problems.  Sidearms are compact enough to allow a model to use it in Close Combat Range to shoot an opponent with greater Penetration and Harm, which is reflected in their bonus to hit.  ALL OTHER WEAPON TYPES, with the exception of SOME SPECIAL) are difficult to use at close combat range, with the butt of a weapon's stock being used to bludgeon an opponent, since the barrel cannot be brought to bear at an enemy that is so close."/

(section 21.3, page 131) Rifles are only adhoc clubs.


Weapon Damage (page 120)

  The Damage of a Weapon is dependant upon the situation.  While in Close Combat, a weapons damage is derived from the Strength (ST) value of the model striking with it (unless its a Sidearm, which relies on the bullets to do the damage). The better or more deadly the Melee weapon is, the greater the bonus to the model's ST value.



Word for word and it clearly... CLEARLY... answers the question of the damage a non-Sidearm firearm does in CC.

  Thank you.



(thread found here: http://forum54.oli.us/index.php?topic=893.45 )
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Offline Stalker

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Re: Ruling on HMG's, rifles, etc in CC
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2007, 06:26:08 PM »
Thank you Archer for taking the time to type out and organize the pertinent sections on this issue.  Good karma to you.

So more or less, we got it right.  Larger ranged weapons use the model's ST value.  Side arms use the DM value.  Melee weapons use the ST
+ (#) value.  This is what was said.  I still need to question the unarmed combat.  I know we duscussed models with flamers or other such weapons that do not have a CC stat still being able to defend themself.  This is what I do not recall, how this is handled.
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Offline Archer

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Re: Ruling on HMG's, rifles, etc in CC
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2007, 12:48:38 PM »
Thank you Archer for taking the time to type out and organize the pertinent sections on this issue.  Good karma to you.

  You're welcome.  I happen to have known where I posted it the last time and brought it over here.  I suggest someone post that to the FAQ in the proper location explaining it.  After all, there is no debate really needed on it- it came right out of the book.  :)

So more or less, we got it right.  Larger ranged weapons use the model's ST value.  Side arms use the DM value.  Melee weapons use the ST
+ (#) value.  This is what was said.  I still need to question the unarmed combat.  I know we duscussed models with flamers or other such weapons that do not have a CC stat still being able to defend themself.  This is what I do not recall, how this is handled.

  They either break away or hope someone shoots them free.  It stinks... but they should not have gotten into CC.  Or so Thom told me (repeatedly).  Always meant to get him in a situation with that rule...  ;D
John "Archer" Tinney

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Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Ruling on HMG's, rifles, etc in CC
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2007, 05:33:52 AM »
I really think that this discussion need to be brought to the Game Questiolns forum.  It's waters are, once again, muddied.  Putting it here, in the UWZ FAQ, gives one the impression that the FAQ has chnaged - it hasn't.  If and until it does, it serves no one in the commuity any good to have an "official" answer. 

John, while I highly respect your opinion (and in this case, factual presentation of the rules), I still see a problem with rifles being clubs, and fists being better than a swung weapon.  If this were the case, why not give every model a Natural Attack?
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline Archer

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Re: Ruling on HMG's, rifles, etc in CC
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2007, 06:05:19 AM »


John, while I highly respect your opinion (and in this case, factual presentation of the rules), I still see a problem with rifles being clubs, and fists being better than a swung weapon.  If this were the case, why not give every model a Natural Attack?

  No problem... and as for the second part- it has been written and stated previously that if a model does not have a CC weapon or something that can be used in CC as a club, it cannot fight- just break away or die (this means Shotguns and Flamethrowers gotta break away).

  I know that's been brought up.

  I for one would appreciate the FAQ team to mull over theabove and fix that erronious entry on the FAQ.

  And Dave- I take it you are not coiming up today?
John "Archer" Tinney

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Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Ruling on HMG's, rifles, etc in CC
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2007, 06:16:18 AM »
Nah - sorry.  I cannot leave the dogs alone that long, plus, Dodger's coming over (I forgot that when talking to you, last).
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline Archer

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Re: Ruling on HMG's, rifles, etc in CC
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2007, 05:28:57 AM »
As clarified by Thom and witnessed by Dragon and Masher last night (27 October 2007), what I specified out of the rules is correct with regard to rifles/HMGs/Autocannon in CC.

  Also respecified was teh shotguns and flamers being out of luck unless they break away or get shot free.

  If the FAQ team would please rectify the entry, it would be appreciated.
John "Archer" Tinney

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Offline masherking

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Re: Ruling on HMG's, rifles, etc in CC
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2007, 06:24:23 PM »
As clarified by Thom and witnessed by Dragon and Masher last night (27 October 2007), what I specified out of the rules is correct with regard to rifles/HMGs/Autocannon in CC.

  Also respecified was teh shotguns and flamers being out of luck unless they break away or get shot free.

  If the FAQ team would please rectify the entry, it would be appreciated.

This is true. Archer is right, Thom himself cleared it up as it was talked about at the event.


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Offline Coil

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Re: Ruling on HMG's, rifles, etc in CC
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2007, 06:23:26 AM »
I thought we had ruled on this issue in the past? Shotguns and flamers need to step out of CC (Which my Inheritors hate. Sawn-off shotguns are the perfect cc weapon IMO)

 Maybe it just didn't get into the FAQ. Dave do you have the document?