Are vehicles to good?

[Enker]

What do you think, are vehicles to good?

I think vehicles are to good. The Mounted HMG's are by far the best weapons in UWZ.
They nearly have the range of a Sniper, but the damage of a HMG in shorter distances.
The are hard to kill. The bonus to hit a large target is not big enough. The Rocket Launchers
have to bad range modifiers, so you often miss with the rockets. They should be able to track on vehicles to hit them better.
Especially the single crewed vehicles are to good. +3 RC when they are standing. Why?
They should get no bonus when they are standing (as any other model) and should get a
penalty if they are moving and shooting in one action, because that is difficult to hand.
Multicrewed vehicles are more realistic with their rules. Moving and shooting in one action is a very big advantage.
All vehicles shoot get big penalties if they are doing this.

The best vehicle I have stood against so far is the Mishima Battlewalker.
Why? Mounted HMG, MV 5, single crewed, cheap and you are able to buy two of it for just one support slot.
(I want to buy two Great Greys for one support slot, too!)
So with faceless you can bring plenty of them. And of course Bauhaus Battlesuits are nasty, but I
don't want to get into the old BH Battlesuit discussion.   

[jjdodger]

I think vehicles are balanced nicely, as you can only have 1 per 2 squads of grunts. Keeps the quantity of vehicles to a reasonable amount.

when shooting them with rockets (and everything else) dont forget the +1 to hit them due to size, if possible.

For the single crewed vehicles, because the driver is not concentrating on both driving and shooting, he gets the +3, which makes sense that he gets a bonus for that (even though, in some vehicles it CAN get extreme[Cough EDD needing a base 16 in SR when standing still Cough]), and some vehicles DO give penalties to gunners who are shooting while moving (Orca's, for example, the gunner on the back can only shoot once per turn if the vehicle is moving)

As to the mishima vehicles, they are not the only ones where you get multiple vehicles in one support squad - orca's come in squads of 1-3, and up to 3 HMG's as well.

The battlesuits are elites, and are not vehicles, so thats a completely different topic.

[PhillySniper]

What do you think, are vehicles to good?

I think vehicles add an interesting dynamic to the game. As a Bauhaus player, Ive seen the strike skimmer used to devestating effectiveness. Ive seen Cybers EDD singlehandedly control and win a game. Theres nothing like the feeling of being pinned down in a  corner cowering at the sight of a great grey.

I think vehicles are to good. The Mounted HMG's are by far the best weapons in UWZ.
They nearly have the range of a Sniper, but the damage of a HMG in shorter distances.
The are hard to kill. The bonus to hit a large target is not big enough. The Rocket Launchers
have to bad range modifiers, so you often miss with the rockets. They should be able to track on vehicles to hit them better.

Vehicles ARE deadly when used properly. A Mounted HMG will rip your force to shreds if you let it. Most MHMGs are  only good to medium range <which puts them into effective range of just about every AR in the game>. Rockets arent the only way to kill a vehicle. I have tasked a whole squade to the sole purpose of taking an EDD out, quickly. I have also used a Strike Skimmer as a decoy to draw fire. That being said, template weapons are more of a pain to me than a vehicle <especially when a certain Cyber player has tons of them and never seems to miss, right jjdodger > As far as tracking on a vehicle that might not be a bad idea seeing as they are larger< im not real sure how it could be done> but  I think thats what AIM can be used for if im not mistake

Especially the single crewed vehicles are to good. +3 RC when they are standing. Why?
They should get no bonus when they are standing (as any other model) and should get a
penalty if they are moving and shooting in one action, because that is difficult to hand.
Multicrewed vehicles are more realistic with their rules. Moving and shooting in one action is a very big advantage.
All vehicles shoot get big penalties if they are doing this.

First let me start off with my feelings on Multi-crewed vehicles. I think the way MCs are designed is very effective and realistic. <having been  in the back of a deuce or a bradley trying to fire accurately while its moving I can attest to that>
Now single crewed are a different story all together. THEY ARE A PAIN!!!! Having been on the wrong end of a EDD doing a richard dance< because I stupidly left my forces with no cover, none on wait and clustered together  > I can feel the dislike of the +3 when not moving. I agree that they maybe should get a small penalty <-1 maybe> when moving and shooting in the same action because as we have all found out, its not easy to do many things well at once < driving while drinking coffee with a smoke in your mouth and talking on a cell > I think the +3 is a bit much for not moving to shoot. A +2 might make it not quite as deadly but still take into effect that it is a vehicle that is losing its greatest attribute<mobility> to fire at your sorry cowering arse But with all that said Ive hated the +3 for a vehicle when playing against it, have loved it when using it to my advantage and actually like the strategy that it needs to be taken out without heavy losses.

Thats just my two cents and I hope I was able to state it without offending anyone as that was not my intention

Philly

[kwegibu]

I always manage to blow them up really quickly So they don't much bother me.

[Gallagher_Standard_Barer]

One inequity I see in vehicle rules is that it puts DL armies which depend on Big Fuglies, at a potential disadvantage.  If my Hurricane were staring down a behemoth, or Maculator, or Contagion Collosus, he could move out of cover, fire, stand still and fire, fire and move back into cover, while the DL units which fill a similar niche on the opposing force could move out of cover, fire, and move back into cover, and he doesn't even recieve the +3 to hit on his shot, granted the big guys don't have to roll system failure, which is likely a balencing factor.

On the  whole I find the vehicles very well balenced, and excepting my above concern, which I don't see as a big problem due to being balenced in other areas, I see no problems with the current rules.

[monte_kev]

I'll let you know after tonight I plan on testing the death angel in a game tonight. by far not the best vehicle but I have never used one.

Nick range uses two ED's in his tourny 1000pt army and it is simple leathal

[Pietia]

I do not see any reason for the +3 RC bonus on single-crewed vehicles (except for the fact, that the enlightened ones from EE thought it to be appropriate). C'mon, people - having a dedicated gunner is a disadvantage? Do you think that all the armies in the world are intentionally crippling the capabilities of their combat vehicles by getting them separate drivers and gunners (and commanders)?  Have you ever tried to drive a combat vehicle? In rough terrain? Under fire? The driver is usually too occupied to do anything else, spotting enemies and shooting them is out of question...
Small vehicles in Warzone are definitely too powerful. The fact that their availability is limited does not make them any less so. A vehicle like Necromower or Mishima Battlewalker (or Capitolian Great Grey) has firepower and survivalability far superior to that of grunt/elite troopers with similar PC cost (with the exception of the blue powered armour), usually they may also be fielded in quite large amounts thanks to the low-cost grunt squads that are available (in a 1k points army it is possible to field 8 necromowers - low availability my @#%$). They also have superior mobility... practically no disadvantages (except for impenetrability - but the DL fuglies also suffer from this one).

[Dragon62]

I like vehicles in the game but most of the time they can be taken out fairly quick and if they have high armor use a havoc grenade to lower the ac by 3 if the vehicle is ground based.

[Pietia]

Have you ever tried to take out even a single Orca, Battlewalker or Great Grey played smartly? Just put some meatshield in front of them, find a nice hiding place for the vehicle, pop out, shoot, shoot while standing, hide again. Tac Sense - useless ('cause you do not see the vehicle, when you're able to use it). Wait - useless (the meatshield...)... If the vehicle owner is smart, those buggers are practically immortal.

[PhillySniper]

Have you ever tried to take out even a single Orca, Battlewalker or Great Grey played smartly? Just put some meatshield in front of them, find a nice hiding place for the vehicle, pop out, shoot, shoot while standing, hide again. Tac Sense - useless ('cause you do not see the vehicle, when you're able to use it). Wait - useless (the meatshield...)... If the vehicle owner is smart, those buggers are practically immortal.

Thats when you have to use your own tactics to make make the Orca, Great Grey or Battle walker out pace its meat shields. The MV of the vehicle can be used against it in that way Or concentrate your fire. You can use an entire squad on wait or if you are Bauhaus use your sniper to chose that vehicle and attempt to take it out. One mistake I have seen people make against Great Greys and Orcas is to move to them. If you move to them and get within their optimum firing range you are going to die. Try making them come to you or move a distance with no targets- you can walk them into a firepower trap< with BH anyway.>
I will agree that vehicles are deadly but not unbeatable. Ive used a Jaeger HMG to hold a Great Grey at bay- I think thats a fair trade off  a HMG out of play to keep a Great Grey out of play?

[Pietia]

Oh, they are beatable... or possible to avoid. But they are far tougher and more destructive than they should be for their PC cost.

[Enker]

I agree fully with Pieta.
The presens of a gunner is a disadvantage in UWZ. That can't be right.
One person can do two things simultanious better than two persons concentration each on one thing?
And if the one person must only do one thing he gets a bonus of +3RC? Damn who is he? X-Superbatman?
And the pop out and hide play with vehicles is really nasty and unfair, but unfortunatly legal.

Beside: The Battlewalkers are better than the Great Grey, because you can buy two of them, and they
are better than the Battlesuits, because they have MV 5 and a better HMG.

[Nscaalcn]

I play Bauhaus myself and whenever I have taken either GT Offroad or Strike Skimmer, they have always been blown to pieces. I admit that I use them to provocatively to draw as much enemy fire as possible. Try to get to optimal firing range with vehicle and most cases enemy must concentrate enough firepower to blow it up. Depending of the game size (in points) and dice, it could take enemy's all fire for one game round. That let's you to activate all your squads and do what you want with them, without taking too much return fire. I think that is fair trade off too.

But usually I don't take any vehicles, at least in smaller games. Infantry is cheaper, packs more firepower than single HMG on vehicle and is more difficult to shoot at. I have learned that nearly nothing is better that a horde of Ducal Militia! I wouldn't even think of a Bauhaus force without Ducal's except when it's possible that enemy has Bio Giant or any other has-los-over-all-battlefield and packs a template weapon thingy.

[Pietia]

Nscaalcn... have you ever tried to fight a Demnogonis army with infantry only? I assure you, trying to hit a unit which is in level 6 smoke behind hard cover with infantry is a serious pain in the backside. Most units hit them on 1s and 2s... WITH aiming. Great Greys for the same cost as 3-4 grunts hit them on 5s or 6s (depending on the range) WITHOUT aiming. In damage output per PC they are far superior to infantry, especially if things get difficult. They are also soo much more survivable (the pop out and hide trick), and mobile - even if the infantry is able to lay down the same amount of firepower as a vehicle, it has to stay in place in order to shoot. A vehicle does not have to...

[LAWwaldo]

  I find that with adequate cover (IE, not 40k style cover...gah I hate open battlefields), vehicles aren't overpowering.  Ya, if you play with an open area or sit in front of an Orca, you deserve whats coming.  However, if you make them move around a bit, and take out their screen, then it becomes a lot simpler.  Yes, it requires a bit more strategy, but thats what I like about the game.