Author Topic: Are vehicles to good?  (Read 28308 times)

Offline Enker

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 210
  • Karma: +16/-1
Re: Are vehicles to good?
« Reply #45 on: January 30, 2006, 04:58:50 AM »
Because other models do not move and shot in ONE action.
And in our group we all think, that vehicles are to good.
Have you ever played against 4x Battlewalker in 1000 Pts Force?

Marines! Lets kick some A S S!

Offline Ruther

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 233
  • Karma: +15/-7
    • Warzone Deutschland
Re: Are vehicles to good?
« Reply #46 on: January 30, 2006, 05:06:21 AM »
Where i play we dont use such lists coz we all want to have fun with a good game not finding out who can build the most evil list ^^.

So no i never saw a problem with the use of the vehicles as they are now.
He Who Laughs Last, Thinks Fastest

Offline dmcgee1

  • Board Member
  • Administrator
  • Member Emeritus
  • *****
  • Posts: 3179
  • Karma: +147/-7
  • Ask away!
Re: Are vehicles to good?
« Reply #47 on: January 30, 2006, 12:53:51 PM »
Because other models do not move and shot in ONE action.
And in our group we all think, that vehicles are to good.
Have you ever played against 4x Battlewalker in 1000 Pts Force?



I am the originator of the Vulkan Army of Death (insofar as I know) and have seen the limits of good sportsmanship with it.  I do not[/b] play this list in tournies.  Further, I only bring it out when it is challenged, as it has become a bone of contention (here, on the forums) as to whether or not it is a "cheesy" force.  4x Battlewalkers may be in this category.

Rather than hindering the vehicles, perhaps you should discourage players from creating armies that lack imagination and fluff.  Conversely, you could fight fire with fire and show the player the error of their ways.

Another point - doesn't the poll at the top of this thread give the overwhelming opinion that vehicles are just fine the way that they are?  I fight my buddies' EDD's, Dragon Bikes, Skimmers and Orcas on a regualr basis and have never had a problem defeating them.  I find that good tactics (in a point-balanced system) can overcome even bad dice rolls. ;)

What vehicles, in particualr, do you have a problem defeating?  Perhaps I can give you some advice on how to tackle them.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2006, 12:59:13 PM by dmcgee1 »
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline Gallagher_Standard_Barer

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 260
  • Karma: +17/-1
Re: Are vehicles to good?
« Reply #48 on: January 30, 2006, 01:01:17 PM »
I really don't think vehicles are too powerful, but I'll second Dave's comments about fighting fire with fire.  If I'm not mistaken you play capitol Enker, you could make quite the "Sharks and Barks" army using K-9s as cheap grunts and purple sharks as support (I know the Great Grey is better but then you couldn't make your army title rhyme).

Offline PFC joe

  • Private First Class
  • Private First Class
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 874
  • Karma: +57/-2
  • assistance from a distance
    • PFC joe's After Action Reviews
Re: Are vehicles to good?
« Reply #49 on: January 30, 2006, 01:02:52 PM »
actually, i've played against 4X walkers and six snipers (two squads of two snipers and two more snipers in the grunts).  i won.   while it was a cheesy force it was perfectly beatable.

-pFC joe
Qui desiderat pacem pręparet bellum

Offline Ruther

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 233
  • Karma: +15/-7
    • Warzone Deutschland
Re: Are vehicles to good?
« Reply #50 on: January 30, 2006, 01:12:42 PM »
Its ofc beatable but not without the right terrain and some missions help there as well.Another good way is to counter it with another cheesy list, wich is just fine than^^.

I just see that as very boring force and very poor sportsmanship (thats my personal opinion so dont bash me for it  ;D)

* Ruther waits for all the smites  :'(
He Who Laughs Last, Thinks Fastest

Offline chribu

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 433
  • Karma: +19/-0
  • Keeping track of all the answers
Re: Are vehicles to good?
« Reply #51 on: January 30, 2006, 01:23:24 PM »
well, I was planning on what dmcgee calls VAoD, after putting all the unit stats into one database and running complex math simulations, before I even read about it on this forum. :D
(not because i tried this before it was written, but because I hadn't yet seen this forum  ;))
« Last Edit: January 30, 2006, 01:25:15 PM by chribu »

Offline Enker

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 210
  • Karma: +16/-1
Re: Are vehicles to good?
« Reply #52 on: January 31, 2006, 02:02:21 AM »
I don't want to persuade you that vehicles are too good.
I think this discussion goes round in circles.
It was just a proposal for the one third who think that vehicles are too good.

actually, i've played against 4X walkers and six snipers (two squads of two snipers and two more snipers in the grunts).  i won.   while it was a cheesy force it was perfectly beatable.

-pFC joe

Yes , I know this force very well and it is cheasy. Add Ameterasu "the healing machine" to it and you have to be a tactical master and have extrem luck to beat this force, if your opponent isn't a total newbe.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2006, 02:13:29 AM by Enker »
Marines! Lets kick some A S S!

Offline PFC joe

  • Private First Class
  • Private First Class
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 874
  • Karma: +57/-2
  • assistance from a distance
    • PFC joe's After Action Reviews
Re: Are vehicles to good?
« Reply #53 on: January 31, 2006, 10:14:58 AM »
Actually, the Mish player has fielded that force several times.  (with Ameratsu included)  I have yet to lose to it.  I find it challenging yes, but the use of fairly simple tactics (don't get shot, don't stand where you can get shot) anda little luck always win out.

-PFC joe
Qui desiderat pacem pręparet bellum

Offline Enker

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 210
  • Karma: +16/-1
Re: Are vehicles to good?
« Reply #54 on: February 01, 2006, 12:11:28 AM »
Actually, the Mish player has fielded that force several times.  (with Ameratsu included)  I have yet to lose to it.  I find it challenging yes, but the use of fairly simple tactics (don't get shot, don't stand where you can get shot) anda little luck always win out.

-PFC joe

What if your opponent does the same?
Isnt't that a pretty boring match?
"Hmm, I can't shot you. It's your turn."
"I can't shot, too. I spend my actions for smoking some cigaretts."
Marines! Lets kick some A S S!

Offline PFC joe

  • Private First Class
  • Private First Class
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 874
  • Karma: +57/-2
  • assistance from a distance
    • PFC joe's After Action Reviews
Re: Are vehicles to good?
« Reply #55 on: February 01, 2006, 01:04:54 AM »
where I come from we call it "maneuvering".  I find that it adds a ton of tension, who is going to slip up first and who can take advantage of the terrain and equipment to the greatest effect.

-PFC joe
Qui desiderat pacem pręparet bellum

Offline dmcgee1

  • Board Member
  • Administrator
  • Member Emeritus
  • *****
  • Posts: 3179
  • Karma: +147/-7
  • Ask away!
Re: Are vehicles to good?
« Reply #56 on: February 01, 2006, 06:05:59 PM »
Preach on, Brutha Joe, preach on...
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline Dr. Nick

  • Member Emeritus
  • *****
  • Posts: 1054
  • Karma: +48/-16
Re: Are vehicles to good?
« Reply #57 on: June 14, 2007, 11:02:32 PM »
i just read this old toppic here, and because

the +3 bonus toppic (http://forum54.oli.us/index.php?topic=818.new#new)


my opinion on vehicles, incl. the +3 bonus here:


in our games we use a lot of vehicles (1 support / 2 units)


what i learned is, that vehicles get shot up rather easy and don“t do overly much damage (3 A)

(they can shoot ~6 times most efficient -> ~3/4 hits D13 ->2-3 dead INF
-> 2 full activations to kill a small squad. the squad will shoot 3-4 wounds, maybe (-> vehicle efficiently dead))

_however_

vehicles ARE very strong

why:

longer lasting

even though a badly damaged vehicle can be killed quite easyly,
IF it is not, it can continue to shoot
-> will shoot with equal efficiency, while squads loose A / W

stability. move your vehicle in front and 1 round you are save.
(-> you can“t remove a new EDD in just 1 round (if played not too risky..))

aiming.

aiming is very efficient with vehicles. here is where the +3 bonus shines most, imho
-> perfect monster/vehicle killer

@+3 bonus:
the examples (s.b.) gives a little inaccurate picture.
often troops are behind cover (-3) or other things.

together with the +3 bonus the total bonus is ~+5 raising RC to 13-14  (EDD even 16..)
without this +3 bonus the hit chance remains at ~50%,
with the bonus (or even aiming) it is possible to shoot very good insted ~70%-80%

-> as even simple cover reduces 50% -> 35% (->-30%!)
or 80% -> 65% (->-~20%)

i feel that even balance wise the +3 should remain!!
(-> thats how you clear out troops in hard cover.. !! grunts with RC 4-5 just can“t do it..
therefore it“s either the vehicles at ~50% hit or CC troops---)


-> even the dreaded strike stimmer:

3 A (incl ambush rule at +3): 9 Shots RC 11+Wbonus -> 5-6 hits dam 13  vs. A 19 -> ~4 W

(against ICS gendarmes, A 16, of course 5-6..)

thats painfull 80 P in trenchers, but this maneuver exposes you to shooting back..
lets say they where just 11 trenchers, now 7 (hey, no specialists here..)
21 shots RC 9 -> ~ 12 hits ~4 W


==> vehicles + infantry is what makes the mix nice..
the MHMG alone is not the victory, but to keep it in the game even if it takes 3-5 wounds!


disclaimer: to field a lot of MHMG“s like 4 or 6 RLBW works, but only because the extreme concentration at one spot.. (and the rather good price)


==> i fear the walker less than the protecting infantry.. 6 W Hurricane is quite tough, yes, but with aiming and RL/MHMG easy to kill.. to shoot 16 P gendarmes or 20 P trenchers in -3 (chassour RC 5..) before attacking him is bad..


uh, long text..
-> vehicles, incl. +3 are ok

(but, i agree, pointwise they are always good to very good and to have any 2/1 slot types is even better)
« Last Edit: June 14, 2007, 11:11:22 PM by NoTrollNick »
"Don“t anticipate outcome. Await the unfolding of events. Remain in the moment."